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Two dogs shot in London by police

867 replies

flowagurl · 08/05/2023 08:40

I’m usually very empathetic and recently even posted on an animal testing post but I just can’t find any compassion in my heart for out of control and dangerous animals at the moment, it’s just getting ridiculous. I obviously feel for the owner who I hope gets some kind of mental support/ counselling.

It’s so confusing as I’m usually so compassionate, I guess having a small child and the number of dog attacks does something to your brain? I hate walking past Bullies with my baby in the pram. Even normal dogs I’m starting to get very hesitant about. For context I usually cry if I step on a silver worm in the bathroom so this is a very strange reaction for me.

Interested to hear what other dog owning/ non dog owning people think. Also the government are going to have to step in at some point right?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
21
Florenz · 10/05/2023 04:35

They need to completely crack down on dangerous dog breeds and dangerous dogs in general and start sending people to prison for a long time (a long time meaning 10 years+) for it. We need new prisons and we need to be sending a lot more people to prison for a lot more offences. We have become FAR too soft on crime in this country, probably the softest country in the world, which is why crime is running rampant. Yes I know people will quote "official statistics show crime is low" at me.

Casilero · 10/05/2023 07:29

Florenz · 10/05/2023 04:35

They need to completely crack down on dangerous dog breeds and dangerous dogs in general and start sending people to prison for a long time (a long time meaning 10 years+) for it. We need new prisons and we need to be sending a lot more people to prison for a lot more offences. We have become FAR too soft on crime in this country, probably the softest country in the world, which is why crime is running rampant. Yes I know people will quote "official statistics show crime is low" at me.

You'd send people to prison for over 10 years for owning a dangerous dog? What about a knife? How long would you sentence someone to for carrying a knife? Because that's a greater problem, I'd have thought? What about assault or mugging? How long would you sentence these people to? Rape? Child neglect? Child neglect is a bigger problem too?

How many prisons do you think you'll need to build? What do you think that might cost? Would you prioritise this cost over the current NHS and education crisis? Or do you think there's enough money for more police, more prisons as well as more NHS funding and more funding from education?

Heyhoitsme · 10/05/2023 08:51

I have become more and more frightened of dogs lately. My aunt's farm dog bit me in the face when I was nine. Since then I've known that the most placid dog can attack. The garage where my car is serviced has a massive dog wandering around. The mechanics laugh at me for being nervous around it. I wish owners would be more considerate.

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Sarvanga38 · 10/05/2023 08:57

The garage where my car is serviced has a massive dog wandering around. The mechanics laugh at me for being nervous around it.

I love dogs, but that is totally unacceptable. I would give another garage my business, and tell them why. They wouldn't care if one person did it, but I'm sure you're not alone in your discomfort, and if they lose enough business they might learn some manners.

gmor6787 · 10/05/2023 09:04

The favourite breed in my area at the moment seems to be the XL Bully. Horrible looking lumps of muscle, usually lead by a youth who can’t control it. Taking my dog out for a walk is so stressful, I have resorted to driving to a park and walking her there.
I’m fed up of these dogs lunging at her, growling and snarling, making her as stressed as me. I always feared one of them making contact. On a visit recent visit to the vets for my dogs check up, a young Bully standing in the doorway (all seats taken) attacked every dog coming into the waiting room until the receptionist told owner to take it outside until his turn came. I too cannot understand the attraction other than the fear they emit.

Confused5678 · 10/05/2023 09:32

I love animals but I think any dog can be dangerous. I’m not sure what actually went on with these dogs , but there needs to be dog licenses / training etc. Anyone can buy a dog it’s scary .

Corgiowner · 10/05/2023 10:26

I’m not opposed to licensing but can someone explain to me why it will make any difference and protect the public from these type of dogs?

SerendipityJane · 10/05/2023 11:09

Corgiowner · 10/05/2023 10:26

I’m not opposed to licensing but can someone explain to me why it will make any difference and protect the public from these type of dogs?

In theory it would mean that the police would gain the power - and the information - to stop anyone with a dog and ask to see it's license. No license and the dog is removed (at the owners expense) and the appropriate penalty (fine and possible further action) applied.

You'd need to start with the premise that owning a dog is a privilege, and not some sort of god given right though. And that's where it would start to unravel, Just look at some posters here.

Corgiowner · 10/05/2023 11:20

SerendipityJane · 10/05/2023 11:09

In theory it would mean that the police would gain the power - and the information - to stop anyone with a dog and ask to see it's license. No license and the dog is removed (at the owners expense) and the appropriate penalty (fine and possible further action) applied.

You'd need to start with the premise that owning a dog is a privilege, and not some sort of god given right though. And that's where it would start to unravel, Just look at some posters here.

I’m not trying to be goady. Would it not be better to enable the police/dog wardens to stop a dg and it’s owner if they have concerns about a dog being a risk to humans other dogs/cats/livestock? Maybe they already have these powers I don’t know? Buying a license doesn’t make you a responsible dog owner. There are plenty of people with driving licenses who speed drink and flout the Highway Code.
Although purchasing a license and linking linking it to compulsory 3rd party liability insurance would be a step in the right direction or maybe linking it to a dogs microchip.

SerendipityJane · 10/05/2023 11:29

Corgiowner · 10/05/2023 11:20

I’m not trying to be goady. Would it not be better to enable the police/dog wardens to stop a dg and it’s owner if they have concerns about a dog being a risk to humans other dogs/cats/livestock? Maybe they already have these powers I don’t know? Buying a license doesn’t make you a responsible dog owner. There are plenty of people with driving licenses who speed drink and flout the Highway Code.
Although purchasing a license and linking linking it to compulsory 3rd party liability insurance would be a step in the right direction or maybe linking it to a dogs microchip.

Licensing sets out a premise. It's why we licence drivers.

Reverse your questions and apply them to drivers. Instead of licensing drivers and having the powers to stop cars and check them and their drivers, we just say to people "have a spin, just be careful" and then rely on the police and traffic officers to catch the naughty kids.

The premise is that the activity being undertaken is a privilege and not a right, by dint of us all having to live together in a society of some sort.

If you live by yourself on a desert island, then knock yourself out with whatever pets you want to keep. It's your own risk. But when you have to live in a society with other people, your rights are very much limited by their well being.

Inchstonesbeatmilestones · 10/05/2023 11:57

I'm a dog lover but can absolutely agree that this was the right thing to do.

Speaking from personal experience, some people are not capable/ don't have any regard for responsible dog ownership.

We had a situation with a neighbour who " rescued" and un-socialised "pit bull" type dog. Knew it hated any other animal but took no measures to train / muzzel. We had two occurrence where the dog broke through our garden fence. First time we were lucky and it caused minor puncture wounds to one of our toy breed dogs.
They promised to fix fences, muzzle at all times and seek behavioural training but no, they couldn't be bothered.

Second time, not so lucky..... It again bust through the fence ( different apparently secure part), grabbed our dog out of our house ( door was open slightly as dog had just come back in, escorted by me) and mauled her to death, bit my husband several times, chewed it's owner quite a few times too. My husband had to stab it to get it to release. Even then it didn't go down.

Police came and confiscated the now subdued dog, but instead of destroying on site, made owners take it to the vet to attend to stab wound, at which point the owner had the dog destroyed. Police would not prosecute owners as dog had been destroyed and they had been seen to be responsible in the end, having chosen not to have the dog patched up.

Dog ownership needs to be taken more seriously. Even the smallest of breed can cause horrific injury if they are not raised and socialised properly.

Sorry for such a long post. This is just an area I really feel passionate about, especially where it seems there is a massive increase in people acquiring dogs as a form of "status" and treating them like crap, rather than the loving family member they should be.

Thesharkradar · 10/05/2023 12:17

I too cannot understand the attraction other than the fear they emit
That IS the attraction plain and simple!
The owners enjoy the feeling of power that they get when others are wary/scared of the dog.
They also have a feeling of mastery over the animal which makes them feel more dominant and powerful.
That's whats going on when you see a picture of a muscle dog with a baby or a toddler the owner is advertising the fact that this powerful dog obeys him, that he has such control and mastery over the animal that he can be sure it will not eat his baby.

Thesharkradar · 10/05/2023 12:20

@Inchstonesbeatmilestones
What you recount is horrifying and a very traumatic.
I can't imagine how awful that must have been 🥺

Lovethesun100 · 10/05/2023 12:23

Inchstonesbeatmilestones · 10/05/2023 11:57

I'm a dog lover but can absolutely agree that this was the right thing to do.

Speaking from personal experience, some people are not capable/ don't have any regard for responsible dog ownership.

We had a situation with a neighbour who " rescued" and un-socialised "pit bull" type dog. Knew it hated any other animal but took no measures to train / muzzel. We had two occurrence where the dog broke through our garden fence. First time we were lucky and it caused minor puncture wounds to one of our toy breed dogs.
They promised to fix fences, muzzle at all times and seek behavioural training but no, they couldn't be bothered.

Second time, not so lucky..... It again bust through the fence ( different apparently secure part), grabbed our dog out of our house ( door was open slightly as dog had just come back in, escorted by me) and mauled her to death, bit my husband several times, chewed it's owner quite a few times too. My husband had to stab it to get it to release. Even then it didn't go down.

Police came and confiscated the now subdued dog, but instead of destroying on site, made owners take it to the vet to attend to stab wound, at which point the owner had the dog destroyed. Police would not prosecute owners as dog had been destroyed and they had been seen to be responsible in the end, having chosen not to have the dog patched up.

Dog ownership needs to be taken more seriously. Even the smallest of breed can cause horrific injury if they are not raised and socialised properly.

Sorry for such a long post. This is just an area I really feel passionate about, especially where it seems there is a massive increase in people acquiring dogs as a form of "status" and treating them like crap, rather than the loving family member they should be.

I am so sorry to read this about your poor dog RIP 💐

Shhhquirrel · 10/05/2023 12:31

SerendipityJane · 10/05/2023 11:29

Licensing sets out a premise. It's why we licence drivers.

Reverse your questions and apply them to drivers. Instead of licensing drivers and having the powers to stop cars and check them and their drivers, we just say to people "have a spin, just be careful" and then rely on the police and traffic officers to catch the naughty kids.

The premise is that the activity being undertaken is a privilege and not a right, by dint of us all having to live together in a society of some sort.

If you live by yourself on a desert island, then knock yourself out with whatever pets you want to keep. It's your own risk. But when you have to live in a society with other people, your rights are very much limited by their well being.

With all due respect this appears to be ‘word salad’.

Thesharkradar · 10/05/2023 12:37

Shhhquirrel · 10/05/2023 12:31

With all due respect this appears to be ‘word salad’.

No, it's just above your reading age😉

SerendipityJane · 10/05/2023 13:06

Shhhquirrel · 10/05/2023 12:31

With all due respect this appears to be ‘word salad’.

ChatGPT understood it.

Corgiowner · 10/05/2023 13:24

SerendipityJane · 10/05/2023 11:29

Licensing sets out a premise. It's why we licence drivers.

Reverse your questions and apply them to drivers. Instead of licensing drivers and having the powers to stop cars and check them and their drivers, we just say to people "have a spin, just be careful" and then rely on the police and traffic officers to catch the naughty kids.

The premise is that the activity being undertaken is a privilege and not a right, by dint of us all having to live together in a society of some sort.

If you live by yourself on a desert island, then knock yourself out with whatever pets you want to keep. It's your own risk. But when you have to live in a society with other people, your rights are very much limited by their well being.

So I consider myself a responsible dog owner I have two well behaved dogs I pick up their poo, if I see other dogs approaching me who are on leads I immediately put mine in leads I’m very conscientious about livestock mine don’t jump up strangers (not that I meet many) in fact only they approach strangers if they invite them and even then one will probably ignore them. I have 3rd party liability insurance. Will buying a licence change me or my dogs behaviour?
Looking at the stats most who were killed by dogs knew the dog how will licensing change this? No parent whose child was killed by a dog thought they are bringing a dangerous dog into their home. It may suit the narrative to believe that these are irresponsible dog owners and parents who knew the dog was dangerous/unpredictable and didn’t care but I don’t believe this. I’ve seen a lot of children who’ve been bitten by dogs the vast majority of parents are totally shocked their dog had done this, so many let their toddlers sleep with their dog and then are horrified when a child getting up to go to find its parents or similar stands on the sleeping dog and gets bitten. A license will not stop people allowing their dogs to share the beds with their toddler, referring to them and viewing them as “fur babies” instead of dogs. You only have to read the comments on here from the poster who owns an extra large American bull dog she thinks hers is a model of behaviour and would hurt a fly despite admitting only her husband at 23 stone is best placed to walk it so it clearly pulls like a train. I’m sure she’d happily purchase a license. The vast majority of people whose kids family friends or neighbours are attacked by dogs genuinely believe their dog is harmless that they a responsible owners who live their dogs and would have happily bought a license is required.
The problem needs to addressed from birth make breeders responsible for the dogs they are breeding for life, they should demonstrate soundness both physically and mentally, prove that they carefully vetted potential purchasers of puppies, in the ideal world attending training should be compulsory owners should be told to high expectations of their dog behaviour. Basic etiquette; if you see another dog on a lead put yours on a lead, in areas like public parks where there are children the elderly and infirm present put your dog on a lead, pick up poo etc.
a dog is not a human in a furry suit it’s a dog treat it like a dog place must clear boundaries in place have high expectations and it will in the majority of cases behave like a well dog.

Thesharkradar · 10/05/2023 13:33

A properly enforced licensing system sends a clear message that having a dog is a serious undertaking I think that would be a change for the better.
There needs to be a freely available phone app that can read microchips in pet animals, if you come across an animal that doesn't have a chip when you scan it with your phone you take a photo of the animal and send it in to the licensing authority.

SerendipityJane · 10/05/2023 13:51

So I consider myself a responsible dog owner

I am sure in a world where drivers weren't licensed, a lot would consider themselves responsible drivers.

Or gun owners.

Or anything that has the potential to cause injury and death to others. Everyone will be the "responsible" ones won't they ?

WiddlinDiddlin · 10/05/2023 13:55

Using the drivers licence model, first of all are you licencing a person to own a dog, any dog and one licence applies to all the dogs they own?

Or are you licencing the dog itself? So not like drivers licences at all more like car registration numbers.

Lets go with that - thats a database that will likely cost several million pounds to set up - and needs a foolproof way to attach data to the dog (you can't stamp a VIN on a dog's chassis) and a database that can only be edited by a select few.

  • Microchips are currently registered by multiple companies none of whom really want to amalgamate their databases.
  • Chips fail, move and can be removed with a deft hand and a sharp blade
  • Chip data entries can be altered by dog wardens and rescue employees easily without stringent checks.

Who is paying to sort these issues, mainly the database one - keeping in mind that it will not be appropriate for people to wait months to changes in licence details as we are talking about living animals not lumps of metal.

These are not insurmountable but... the next issue is this:

Seizing cars is reasonably easy, dump them on a lot, either someone sorts it and pays and picks them up or they get sent to auction or scrap.

Seizing living animals is not easy - where do you put them?

The current system for seized animals is that they are housed at the taxpayers expense in kennels that have won the contract for that, by being the lowest bidder. These kennels are to put it mildly, not very nice. In many cases dogs seized by the police go on to suffer severe neglect as a result, not getting veterinary care, medication, correct diet, exercise, handling or training.

You say 'at the owners expense' but you would be forcing people to pay out money to an unknown business (because the current system is that the kennels are a secret location, owners do not know where their dogs are or dogs would be stolen back), for an unknown period of time. How do you ensure those costs are the same across the country, given each business will price differently, have different overheads etc etc?

Likely there would have to be a 'sign over' system where owners could sign their dog over to be rehomed or euthanised - without the 'rehome' option, just euthanasia, thats going to look really awful to the dog loving public, which you may not care about but tends to mean less compliance with rules and more rebellion!

Where will signed over dogs go, rescues are full already!

The current system of seizing dogs (either dogs who are accused of an offence or dogs accused of being an illegal breed) costs the taxpayer tens of thousands a year and this proposal would ramp that up massively, as dogs would end up in kennels with owners unable to pay and kennel owners still needing paying. If the government aren't covering those costs you'll find there are next to no businesses willing to take on such a contract to hold these dogs as it would be up to them to chase for payment. (This is why the taxpayer pays currently!).

i don't see how this can work, without costing the taxpayer billions, causing serious animal welfare issues and it still won't address the people who have no intention of being responsible owners.

To make the licencing costs cover all these costs would be to punish responsible owners who have done nothing wrong and almost certainly never will, and it would make the licence cost so high as to be prohibitive.

You'd end up with Doris round the corner unable to own her little yorkie, but Nasty Steve will still be keeping six Bully Kuttas in his basement that he exercises on treadmills, walks at midnight and feeds on kittens.

SerendipityJane · 10/05/2023 13:57

You'd end up with Doris round the corner unable to own her little yorkie, but Nasty Steve will still be keeping six Bully Kuttas in his basement that he exercises on treadmills, walks at midnight and feeds on kittens.

You know what ? Lifes not fair.

Boomboom22 · 10/05/2023 14:06

WiddlinDiddlin · 10/05/2023 13:55

Using the drivers licence model, first of all are you licencing a person to own a dog, any dog and one licence applies to all the dogs they own?

Or are you licencing the dog itself? So not like drivers licences at all more like car registration numbers.

Lets go with that - thats a database that will likely cost several million pounds to set up - and needs a foolproof way to attach data to the dog (you can't stamp a VIN on a dog's chassis) and a database that can only be edited by a select few.

  • Microchips are currently registered by multiple companies none of whom really want to amalgamate their databases.
  • Chips fail, move and can be removed with a deft hand and a sharp blade
  • Chip data entries can be altered by dog wardens and rescue employees easily without stringent checks.

Who is paying to sort these issues, mainly the database one - keeping in mind that it will not be appropriate for people to wait months to changes in licence details as we are talking about living animals not lumps of metal.

These are not insurmountable but... the next issue is this:

Seizing cars is reasonably easy, dump them on a lot, either someone sorts it and pays and picks them up or they get sent to auction or scrap.

Seizing living animals is not easy - where do you put them?

The current system for seized animals is that they are housed at the taxpayers expense in kennels that have won the contract for that, by being the lowest bidder. These kennels are to put it mildly, not very nice. In many cases dogs seized by the police go on to suffer severe neglect as a result, not getting veterinary care, medication, correct diet, exercise, handling or training.

You say 'at the owners expense' but you would be forcing people to pay out money to an unknown business (because the current system is that the kennels are a secret location, owners do not know where their dogs are or dogs would be stolen back), for an unknown period of time. How do you ensure those costs are the same across the country, given each business will price differently, have different overheads etc etc?

Likely there would have to be a 'sign over' system where owners could sign their dog over to be rehomed or euthanised - without the 'rehome' option, just euthanasia, thats going to look really awful to the dog loving public, which you may not care about but tends to mean less compliance with rules and more rebellion!

Where will signed over dogs go, rescues are full already!

The current system of seizing dogs (either dogs who are accused of an offence or dogs accused of being an illegal breed) costs the taxpayer tens of thousands a year and this proposal would ramp that up massively, as dogs would end up in kennels with owners unable to pay and kennel owners still needing paying. If the government aren't covering those costs you'll find there are next to no businesses willing to take on such a contract to hold these dogs as it would be up to them to chase for payment. (This is why the taxpayer pays currently!).

i don't see how this can work, without costing the taxpayer billions, causing serious animal welfare issues and it still won't address the people who have no intention of being responsible owners.

To make the licencing costs cover all these costs would be to punish responsible owners who have done nothing wrong and almost certainly never will, and it would make the licence cost so high as to be prohibitive.

You'd end up with Doris round the corner unable to own her little yorkie, but Nasty Steve will still be keeping six Bully Kuttas in his basement that he exercises on treadmills, walks at midnight and feeds on kittens.

Is that true? How awful that we the taxpayer pay to look after seized dogs. They should be pts immediately I don't want any tax money to be spent on keeping dangerous dogs alive! Wtf, social services can't even keep babies safe and we pay for that? It makes me feel sick that as a society we would do that.
Again if someone is a bad owner put the dog down. Why on earth should they be rehomed? The damage is done their personality is set, no other person should be looking after them. Even if the dog is rehomed due to elderly owners its not right to pass the dog on.

Boomboom22 · 10/05/2023 14:07

I really don't know where we have got this idea that dogs deserve to live even if they are dangerous.

Thesharkradar · 10/05/2023 14:23

They should be pts immediately
I agree, it might be the case that the dog loving public will object or maybe the tide is turning with the rise of dog attacks and the level of general nuisance perpetrated by irresponsible and incompetent dog owners.
Maybe the public no longer loves dogs

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