Employment and Autism

[YipeeHipee]

Hi - Need some advice please. My son (he's 21) has Autism. He's been working for a retailer for nearly 2 years. He started off doing shelf stacking but he found this very hard and kept dropping things.

So they moved him to a different department and gave him a role that involves working outside. Unfortunately part of my son's Autism is that he likes to talk about his favourite (very specific) subjects. Recently there was a meeting between me (I came along to support him at his managers request) him and the manager.

The manager was concerned because

•He's apparently been coming into the building constantly, talking too much and not working enough. He also supposedly pester's female members of staff but I don't believe this is true

•He snapped at another member of staff when she asked him to go back outside rather than talk to her.

•He isn't doing the job to satisfaction, it's causing customer complaints and putting more pressure on other staff members which the manager says isn't fair

The manager outlined that (in writing) that he must stay outside and carry out his job. He must not come inside unless it's an emergency, breaktime or the end of his shift. Unfortunately my son is struggling with this and today we've been called into another meeting. This time he was given a final warning and told his job is now at serious risk. My son has suggested that he could be moved to another department but the manager says that they don't know where else they could put him that would meet his needs.

Can he be sacked for something that's part of his Autism (constantly talking about his favourite subjects) or would we potentially have a case with a solicitor under the disability discrimination act if they do try to sack him ? Thanks

It’s difficult OP.

Employees are, by law, required to make ‘reasonable adjustments’. However if after trying reasonable adjustments their continues to be ‘problems’ that are deemed to be detrimental to either the workplace services and/or the mental/physical well-being of other colleagues or customers then employers are unfortunately allowed to discriminate against protected characteristics.

I would encourage your son to look for another job, as this work place is clearly not the right fit for your son, and would be better to find somewhere more understanding.

Sorry this is happening

But he's not just talking- he's making female staff feel unsafe, leaving the job he is supposed to be doing, continually walking into areas he does not have a reason to be in, and not completing the job he has to an appropriate level: they have tried to make accomodations for him. Moved him from a job he wasn't able to complete to a new role. He is still not performing and they have started the dismissal process. They seem to have really tried to accomodate his needs, but he is not able to do what he needs.

The job is obviously not a right fit. Put your energy into finding the right fit, not fighting this. You are trying to put a square peg into a round hole. Are there any realistic employment opportunities aligned with your son’s specific interest or strengths? I have been through this with one of mine, and it’s pretty much the only way it works I believe.

The Access to Work scheme offers support to autistic people in employment. Hope this helps.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/access-to-work-factsheet/access-to-work-factsheet-for-customers

I agree with all of this. It's not just him talking a lot. You also shouldn't dismiss the feedback about female colleagues so quickly. You need to address this aspect of his behaviour to stop him putting himself and others at risk.

Just because you chose not to believe that your DS pesters female members of staff doesn’t make it not true. Have you at least spoken to him about this? I appreciate it’s difficult but it’s important you do, as he can’t go through his whole life disrespecting women.

Do you feel that you could say his interests and hive mind could help re a job change?

It's not the right job for him. It sounds like they're following the correct procedures. Yes they can sack him if he's not able to do his job properly and not follow instructions designed to keep his job (stay outside and do his job).

What sort of subjects are his favourites? If they are something like football maybe a pub where it’s not so strange to be making small talk about such things. Or a job actually related to his specific interests.

The employer are being very careful to follow employment law procedure to the letter with a view to dismissing your DS asap. They are being very careful because if they make a mistake they don't want there to be any chance of a Wrongful Dismissal or Discrimination case.

If this process continues then your son will find it very difficult to get another job because he will have to reveal that he was dismissed after a disciplinary process.

My advice would be that you contaxt the management and ask whether it would be possible to negotiate a mutually beneficial employment severance agreement. this would be a binding contract where your DS agrees not to attempt to sue them for Wrongful Dismissal or Discrimination and an appropriate wording for a reason for leaving and a positive reference (ie one that mentions his good qualities but doesn't mention the problem issues) - still truthful obviously - is also agreed and committed to by the employer so that your DS can find another job more easily. ACAS may be able to help with this.

However nb if this option is taken he will be deemed to have become voluntarily unemployed for benefits purposes. if realistically you think he isn't really wmployable then this would be the wrong negotiation.

The alternative might be to work with the employers to cooperate with the process but ask that it's dealt with as a work capability issue rather than a disciplinary issue. The "Final written warning" isn't appropriate if it's effectively saying that you DS needs to stop being Autistic in order to keep his job. obviously he can't - but also the employer is not obliged to employ a disabled person whose disability makes it impossible for them to do the job to a satisfactory standard. so either way the employment will end but the way that it is ended as a Work Capability termination would be better for your DS if realistically he needs to be supported on benefits rather than expected to work.

If he behaves the same way in another job, there will be the same reaction.

Employees are expected to carry out the task they are being paid for.Women are everywhere, and none appreciate being pestered with unwanted attention in the workplace; I'm very surprised that you didn't take that complaint on board.

So really, DS needs to grasp the need to change his behaviour. Is he able to do that? Or, he's going to be unemployable.

on the woman pestering it’s not ok just to say you don’t believe that happens. You aren’t there to know presumably and obviously women can object to male attention of any unwanted kind which is perfectly fair enough. It’s not something they should have to just suck up even if a man ‘just’ wants to talk to them about his own special interests.

You could contact Ambitious about Autism for information and support about work experience opportunities that might help him get a job more in line with his strengths or special interests. https://www.ambitiousaboutautism.org.uk/what-we-do/employment

Thanks for the responses. Part of the problem is that my son will say, yes he understands (to me and manager) and verbally agrees not to do it again (ie: will stay outside) but will then "forget" on his next shift and we are back to square one.

Unfortunately his interests are so specific that finding a job that includes them would be near impossible

As long as they follow the correct procedures then yes he can be dismissed for this. The disability act means they have to give reasonable adjustments which it sounds like they have done by moving him. But it sounds like he is just not doing his job, he can’t expect to stop working and talk whenever he wants and pestering women does not sound ok.

Sorry but it sounds like he’s not doing his job. It’s not just talking that’s the problem - he’s leaving his designated work area and not doing his tasks. There have been complaints from staff and customers. Understandably they are seeking to dismiss him and are permitted to do so. They can prove they tried to accommodate him by moving to a different role, followed correct disciplinary procedures and gave him warnings, and he’s still not doing his job.

I'd ask yourself "what do I expect employer to do and what aren't they doing that they should/could?"

Because if the answer to thy question is "nothing more" then yes - they can dismiss him and it's fair. Because they've exhausted all reasonable adjustments.

They may be able to swap him working patterns? For example could he work his role overnight when it's quieter and there's not people to go in and distract? Eg overnight deliveries?

But the truth is as much as monologing about special interests is understood to be a feature in some people with autism he can't be paid to do that instead of his work.

And I get it. I have an 18yo ds with autism.

He also supposedly pester's female members of staff but I don't believe this is true

Why not?

I am a foster carer of a young man who is autistic. He is currently at school and I worry for him when he looks for employment.
I see that a few posters are commenting on the pestering of women saying poster doesn’t seem to be taking it seriously.
we are all different and what some people think is pestering some people don’t. Some people have very low tolerance levels and complain about a lot of things, some just put on their big girl pants and get on with it.
I probably will get a lot of flack off posters for this but this young man has a disability, he’s not just sitting on his arse claiming benefits he’s trying to support himself. His poor mum has probably spent 21 years fighting for her child to receive an education, support from professionals while having all the emotional rollercoaster of life that an autistic child has.
As others have said, try and find a job in a place that will embrace him and support him, this is probably not the right place for him to be, the other staff have already made their feelings clear and it will probably get worse for him.
Good luck to both of you, you’ve obviously done a brilliant job in getting him this far.

I’m sure you are trying to come at this from a good place @Cassimin , but it’s really unfair to say women should “just put on their big girl pants and get on with it”- why should they be uncomfortable being cornered and talked at my someone who won’t stop, distracts them from their work and doesn’t understand normal social cues when they try to get away. It is unfortunate for the young man concerned, but if you’ve ever been made to feel uncomfortable by a man who won’t leave you alone you will understand how vulnerable that can make one feel, and it’s not their job to be nice to someone who won’t leave them alone.
i get that it’s hard for OPs son, but he needs to be helped to understand this is not acceptable behaviour or find a more suitable role.

I also have a dc with asd, but what the fuck did I just read? ‘put on their big girl pants’ fuck no. The op sounds like a very supportive mother but part of that support can be helping her son to develop behaviors that don’t harass women.

"just put on their big girl pants and get in with it"
Wow!
The utter dismissal of the feelings of women who are being made to feel uncomfortable here is unbelievable!
This enabling is how male entitlement continues, instead of the man learning to understand how his behaviour is unacceptable the women should just put up with it, after all they aren't important they are only women.

Keepingthingsinteresting
unfortunately yes I have been made to be uncomfortable in the workplace, I know what it’s like, how it can affect getting up each morning and experiencing the dread of going into work. It’s not good.
but I live with an autistic young man, I am now experiencing being talked ‘at’ constantly, it is exhausting and does grate on your nerves.
I was just trying to say that we don’t know what’s going on but we all have different levels of tolerance and there are different types of pestering, some that could just be ignored if it is because of a disability and some that obviously never should be.
I suppose I’m just worrying about the future of my foster son too and seeing the discrimination he has experienced in his young life, I dread to think what it may be like when/ if he enters the workforce.