Employment and Autism

[YipeeHipee]

Hi - Need some advice please. My son (he's 21) has Autism. He's been working for a retailer for nearly 2 years. He started off doing shelf stacking but he found this very hard and kept dropping things.

So they moved him to a different department and gave him a role that involves working outside. Unfortunately part of my son's Autism is that he likes to talk about his favourite (very specific) subjects. Recently there was a meeting between me (I came along to support him at his managers request) him and the manager.

The manager was concerned because

•He's apparently been coming into the building constantly, talking too much and not working enough. He also supposedly pester's female members of staff but I don't believe this is true

•He snapped at another member of staff when she asked him to go back outside rather than talk to her.

•He isn't doing the job to satisfaction, it's causing customer complaints and putting more pressure on other staff members which the manager says isn't fair

The manager outlined that (in writing) that he must stay outside and carry out his job. He must not come inside unless it's an emergency, breaktime or the end of his shift. Unfortunately my son is struggling with this and today we've been called into another meeting. This time he was given a final warning and told his job is now at serious risk. My son has suggested that he could be moved to another department but the manager says that they don't know where else they could put him that would meet his needs.

Can he be sacked for something that's part of his Autism (constantly talking about his favourite subjects) or would we potentially have a case with a solicitor under the disability discrimination act if they do try to sack him ? Thanks

I don't think so. His job is outside. He stops doing it to come inside. He isn't doing his job and is putting extra workload into others. The pestering is unfortunately only one of the problems.

Don't people have compassion anymore.

It's potentially not something he can grasp. He would need further adjustments which could include being reminded to go back to work or a timetable with short breaks to regulate. It would require empathy and understanding of neuro diversity.

“Although really all he needs is reminding nicely by the person he is talking to to go back to work.”

He was reminded by a colleague and he snapped at her.

Agree 100%.

Normally on MN when anyone has a disability or an SEN, it's considered perfectly acceptable for them to be on benefits and no one is allowed to question otherwise. There was that thread earlier where the woman with autism said she "couldn't" work and that was fine and anyone who suggested that she might be able to get a job was shot down. And here's a lad who's really trying his best in a job and to not be totally reliant on benefits but no one can imagine how soul destroying and boring it must be to push trollies around in the cold for an entire shift as if autistic people don't have feelings and that any shite job is good enough for them.

My god the lack of understanding and awareness of autism on this forum is shocking!

It sounds as though he needs closer supervision and support not sacking! They should have him buddied up with someone so he can learn the role properly. You cannot assume he understands what is expected of him. You definitely cannot expect him to understand the social side of working. He sounds like he needs clear guidance and someone working alongside him for sometime. Not chucked out into the car park for 8 hours.
And whilst no it's not nice for people to feel uncomfortable with how he behaves it seems from the OPs posts that the shop have done little to support him in that regard. Someone with some awareness of autism should have taken steps to prevent things escalating when concerns were first raised. Not simply shunting him from department to department.

They were shot down because the OP was asking what she could do to fill her time.. she was not asking how she could get into work.
Sadly, her thread should have been full of ideas, except it got derailed into ablelist nonsense about how she should work because she "can post on MN" etc.

Compassion doesn't mean keeping someone in a role they can not do. That's not compassion. That's charity and commercial businesses are not charities. Compassion is not forcing women to accept feeling harassed either.
The OP needs to seek assistance from appropriate providers to help find her DS a job that fits him. One where he will feel valued and competent. That would be the compassionate thing to do

no one can imagine how soul destroying and boring it must be to push trollies around in the cold for an entire shift

No one is too good to push trollies around, that’s incredible snobbery. Who says it’s a shite job? If he doesn’t want the job someone else will happily take it.

@Cassimin I thought your response was excellent - really supportive of the OP. My son (21) has fallen foul of the assumption that talking to a woman in an autistic way is pestering them. I get it that harrassment is about the feelings of the person perceiving that treatment, but there is a HUGE difference between intentional pestering and just being yourself which happens to be awkward and inappropriate. Can we hope for a society where guys like this are cut some slack? Can we hope that people can differentiate real threat from perceived threat? I really feel for the OP and agree that the job might not be the best place for her son. But I don't think it is fair for commenters to assume they know this young man better than his mum and go on about changing his behaviour towards women. I suspect it is his behaviour towards anyone but the women are feeling more pestered. Maybe they can be given 'permission' to tell him robustly what they feel rather than complain about him to management. There needs to be support for them to find a solution which does not heap all the blame / responsibility on him to change, as it is asking him to be someone else.

I don’t think the op, the employer or the female staff think that this is harassment. Pestering here is used as bothering/persistent interrupting.

This thread makes me realise that society still has a long way to go in accepting autistic people in the work place. It doesn't surprise me that only 21% of autistic adults are in employment.

Even if he wasn’t talking to female staff but was instead daydreaming quietly, there would still be an issue of him leaving his work undone outside.

It's possibly more that he speaks to 'certain female staff' that it feels more targeted. If he spoke to members of staff- male and female and not incessantly to some and not others then it would probably be seen less like this. He can't help it but similarly I have been one of these women and it did make me uncomfortable, not because I felt he was a threat to me but because he'd target me and not the other women I worked with and it was pretty relentless. Of course we should be inclusive but not at the expense of making women feel uncomfortable.

OP it might be worth seeing what the local council offer, here they can arrange paid 'placements' and arrange a support worker of sorts who is on hand to support them. My cousin is autistic and he did this, he now has a job which suits him really well but that he wouldn't have previously considered; also helped see which employers were understanding and ensures they aren't being taken advantage of.

The reality is some jobs aren't suitable and the adjustments required aren't reasonable. I have ADHD and have to accept that there are many jobs that fundamentally I just wouldn't be able to do- I have tried many and had supportive employers and tried a variety of adjustments. It was hard because my dream job was one of these, it feels unfair but its also reality.

I'm autistic and see both sides of this.

Yes, his workplace need to make reasonable adjustments but that doesn't mean they need to keep employing him at all costs when it clearly isn't working out.

As it is, they've already found him a different role and it sounds like they've been very understanding about sending him back out not disciplining him for not doing his job properly.

But at the end of the day they are a business and they're not going to employ someone who doesn't (or can't) do their job. It's not fair on anyone - your DS, management or other staff members who have to pick up the slack on top of their own work.

Also, please don't underestimate how uncomfortable these women might feel when your DS repeatedly targets them to talk at every single day. I've been on the receiving end of this (along with other members of staff) and the man in question ended up being let go as his behaviour just wasn't appropriate.

I know his behaviour isn't sexual or rude, but that doesn't mean it doesn't make others incredibly uncomfortable. It's not nice going into work and dreading seeing a particular person because they just latch on to you and you can't walk away.

If your DS is still struggling despite all the help and support being offered, maybe you both need to accept that this isn't the right environment for him.

But surely you understand that some jobs just aren't suitable for some people? Regardless of the reason. Be it autism, adhd or general personality. Sadly having certain conditions may mean it is harder to find a suitable job. I'm autistic. I could never in a million years do a job that involved managing people. I don't know if that's because of my autism or personality. But really it doesn't matter. I'd be terrible at it so I can't/ don't do it.

I also once joined a hobby group (high percentage of autistic people attend), and started chatting to a guy who was sitting by himself. Unfortunately by being kind, he latched on to me. He followed me about constantly talking at me. No he wasn't being sexual or anything but he just wouldn't leave me alone. I tried to say nicely that I was just going to chat to so and so for a bit or go off and do something else but he'd just stand staring at me waiting until I finished and start up again immediately after. It's very difficult feeling pestered even if the intentions aren't bad. There's only so long you can "be kind" for. And in a work place it's even worse as you're meant to be there to work!

Saying 'Targets them' sounds predatory. I'd think it's more that they go to those they think are their friends (but not from the other person's pov).

Non-autistic people - even the extremely chatty ones - also usually go to their friends or those they're mostly comfortable or familiar with to chat, they aren't said to be 'targeting' them. That word seems to be used when someone feels threatened, even mildly so.

Yes if it's constant and unwanted, it doesn't feel appropriate or comfortable.

I also don't think it's unfair that there are jobs people - autistic or not - can't do. It's being human, we can't all do every type of work.

I also don't think it's unfair that there are jobs people - autistic or not - can't do. It's being human, we can't all do every type of work

I agree with this. There are a million and one jobs I can’t do as I’m not cut out for them. I’d be fired within a day. There is no way I could do the job my child with ASD does (they have ‘adjustments’ of a sort). Not only could i never develop that skill set (inherently not possible as not the way my brain works), but even if I could I wouldn’t be suited. Is that unfair? Should people accept me for roles I would not be a fit for?

In my experience its a fair word to use, others will disagree and that's fine.

Saying 'Targets them' sounds predatory. I'd think it's more that they go to those they think are their friends (but not from the other person's pov).

But it is predatory.

Predatory behaviour doesn't have to be sexual in nature - all they needs to happen is the person on the receiving end feels harassed and uncomfortable.

As you say, it's not intentional but that doesn't change how the recipient feels about it, and they have the right to feel comfortable in their workplace too.