Employment and Autism

[YipeeHipee]

Hi - Need some advice please. My son (he's 21) has Autism. He's been working for a retailer for nearly 2 years. He started off doing shelf stacking but he found this very hard and kept dropping things.

So they moved him to a different department and gave him a role that involves working outside. Unfortunately part of my son's Autism is that he likes to talk about his favourite (very specific) subjects. Recently there was a meeting between me (I came along to support him at his managers request) him and the manager.

The manager was concerned because

•He's apparently been coming into the building constantly, talking too much and not working enough. He also supposedly pester's female members of staff but I don't believe this is true

•He snapped at another member of staff when she asked him to go back outside rather than talk to her.

•He isn't doing the job to satisfaction, it's causing customer complaints and putting more pressure on other staff members which the manager says isn't fair

The manager outlined that (in writing) that he must stay outside and carry out his job. He must not come inside unless it's an emergency, breaktime or the end of his shift. Unfortunately my son is struggling with this and today we've been called into another meeting. This time he was given a final warning and told his job is now at serious risk. My son has suggested that he could be moved to another department but the manager says that they don't know where else they could put him that would meet his needs.

Can he be sacked for something that's part of his Autism (constantly talking about his favourite subjects) or would we potentially have a case with a solicitor under the disability discrimination act if they do try to sack him ? Thanks

I suspect those female employees are close to his age, not in a position of authority over him, and were initially tolerant of a bit of constant talking. However, OP has said he goes outside if a manager says so but snapped at a woman (presumably not a manager) who said that he should. So he accepts (but does not retain) the hierarchy of a manager instructing him but not a female colleague.

Is it possible he is pestering the women because he feels more comfortable approaching them than the men? It may not be that he's deliberately pestering women as such, but he needs to be aware that the impact of his behaviour on these women is not acceptable to them, whatever his motivations are.

The key question is whether he can change his behaviour to stop doing these things? If he can, then he needs to do that. If he can, but only with help, then what kind of help does he need? Is it realistic for an employer to put that kind of help in place? If yes, then that's a reasonable adjustment, but if it's not, then they are within their rights to dismiss him.

So the situation sounds like a number of other workers, mostly women have been friendly with him early on and been polite of his interest (example Pokémon) and since then he has latched onto them and will not stop talking about it. Every chance he gets he lists off which ones came from which generation and so on, as soon as the manager leaves.

He may not realise the women have complained to the manager, because they haven't specifically told him.
It's still pestering even if he doesn't realise it. you need to make this crystal clear.

Would you share what his special interest is OP? I know you said that it's too niche to find work related to it, but perhaps we can collectively use it as a springboard to think of what work he might be better suited to?

God it's hard OP. He's probably bothering the female staff because they're kinder and more tolerant than the men. They're probably not snapping at him to go back outside. He may stand too close because he's so happy to have someone to talk to, he might talk loudly because he's so excited to be sharing his favourite topic and he probably has no idea that thye're not really interested.

I agree with trying him listening to something while he works - would that help him? He could talk along to it then maybe and it might change his focus. It might also make him feel less lonely outside on his own.

Also does he have other people he is able to talk about his passions to? Does he have any friends or online groups? If he has somewhere else that he can talk about his interests he might not feel so desperate to talk about it at work.

Are the women aware of his autism? I wonder if they'd be ok with telling him to go outside anytime he comes in to talk to them? It might really help him if they are clear that they are working and that he needs to as well.

I hope he can find a way to make this work, he's lucky to have you to support him.

itsgettingweird
another agree!
I suppose I’m coming from the second perspective because that’s what I have experience of. My home is also my workplace so I have no escape.
MichelleScarn
no one should have to put up with being harassed, I didn’t take pestering as being harassed, if you are feeling uncomfortable in anyway in your workplace you should report.
BessieSurtees
I didn’t say everyone should do what I would do in the situation, again we are all different.
I have also cared for a child with social anxiety and there’s no way she could have coped with this in the workplace so I understand both angles.

I have an adult son with ASD who works in retail. When he first started I was told that he didn't listen, but people with ASD have a slower processing speed, so they would tell him the various jobs he needed to do on his shift but his brain would only process a couple of things that had been said. This problem was overcome by them writing down the list of jobs he had to do each shift. He could keep this list in his pocket and refer to it.

There have been no further problems. Could they do this with your son so that he knows what the rules are.

I have worked with a lot of autistic men in a group that helped people get a job. One man was deeply unpleasant, the rest just didn't understand social norms.

Many of these men were really greatful for some advice and wanted to improve. Theae women have the right to complain, but could they just have a blunt, but not insulting chat? If we want diversity and everyone to have a job, don't we have to adapt and talk? People seem to have forgotten how to get themselves out of the way and help other people. Work is socialisation, we would all get a little odd and extreme without it.

I have an adult son with ASD and I know the difficulties of trying to find employment. My son is now the trolley man at our local Tesco which I'm guessing is probably the job your son is doing. We have received help from this charity which has been helpful to us both. https://www.actionforaspergers.org/counselling-for-close-others/

It seems employers have tried and so has OP. She says it 'goes in one ear and out the other'. Employers have tried to address it before but nothings changed. He's been told and apologises but then does it again. A manager will tell him to go outside and get on with his work and as soon as they've gone, OPs son goes straight back inside to do what he's repeatedly been told not to do.

He doesn't listen and it's not getting any better, he's not doing his job properly and is effecting others ability to do their jobs.

It's not the job for him.

You can only try so many times, so agreed. Autism can be so difficult.

Mamamia7962
this is my foster son too, we have lists for everything.
’ go and tidy that area’ would mean nothing to him but if he’s given a list of specific tasks he could do it no problem.
I have had to learn this and change and adapt. Unfortunately sometimes people don’t get this and they see him as being defiant or just taking no notice and not being compliant.
How about a personal passport for the management team ( I made one for school) giving examples of how he needs supporting and how he can best understand instructions.

The management should have already have completed the passport type thing (usually used in schools) during a disability assessment. They should have assessed his need and what strategies or support he needs to do that job.

If he needs extra time, if he needs extra instruction, if he needs someone to check in with him, if he needs regular or extra breaks etc etc. These should all be accommodated.

However if everything is in place and he still can not focus on the task in hand, if he still does not understand that he cannot pester other people (for clarity OP has already revealed that he does) if he is unable to do the work then he can be let go.

Even under the equality act (disability) a person still has to do the basic duties of their job, be it with adjustments, they still have to do it. People with disabilities can be dismissed.

People with ASD are just as diverse as people without, what works for one person will not work for many others. Yes we need to recognise diversity and yes we may need to adapt but it can also be detrimental to other people if they are constantly interrupted or distracted, with ASD or not.

FLDS - This is where the employer needs to be specific, telling an autistic person to get on with their work isn't clear enough. If he's on trolleys then he may well go outside and collect some trolleys (it may only be one or two) and he will think well I've done what I was told and then go back inside. The fact that he apologises and then does exactly the same thing tells me that he doesn't understand what it is that he specifically needs to do. People don't realise that a person with autism has no idea of concepts so this is why it's so important to be specific and to write instructions down for them as that would help them.

"The manager outlined that (in writing) that he must stay outside and carry out his job. He must not come inside unless it's an emergency, breaktime or the end of his shift. Unfortunately my son is struggling with this and today we've been called into another meeting. This time he was given a final warning and told his job is now at serious risk" - from OPs first post.

The employer has been really clear and OPs son continues to do it. She even said he gets told verbally to go outside by a manager but he waits till the manager is out of sight then goes straight inside again. There's nothing to suggest he doesn't understand or that it hasn't been explained to him what the expectations are. He isn't complying. He isn't doing his job properly (the second role he's been given as he couldn't manage the first) and is effecting other staff and their productivity too.

The job is obviously not a right fit. Put your energy into finding the right fit, not fighting this. You are trying to put a square peg into a round hole. Are there any realistic employment opportunities aligned with your son’s specific interest or strengths?

I would echo this. Whilst employers are meant to offer reasonable adjustments, if your son keeps wandering away from his post and disrupting other members of staff, you are unlikely to get anywhere at tribunal. I think you need to focus on finding a role that is a better fit.

Wow, once again we see the rights of a man being prioritised over the rights of women not to be harassed by men. Autistic or not OP, your son has been told probably multiple times that his behaviour isn't OK, yet he is continuing to behave like it, and his autism is being used as an excuse because he doesn't understand social norms. Wow.

Why do you not believe he's harassing women? Presumably a number of women have complained, are they all lying?

A workplace doesn't have to be nurturing?!

OP would an Apprenticeship be better- a supportive environment where reasonable adjustment could be more extensive?

he needs to stick to the rules and leave the girls alone but it goes in one ear and out the other..

Unfortunately he needs to leave then. It's really not fair on the female members of staff. And I say this as an ND person.

I understand why OP may be looking at the legal route because sometimes a parent has to fight every step of the way for assessments, for treatment, for recognition, for adjustments and this can start from the early years. And despite the equality act people do experience discrimination.

Whether the OP’s son is doing this deliberately by ignoring rules that he does understand or whether it is unintentional and due to his inability to focus a work based assessment can establish whether he can do the job or not.

The equality act does not say that an employer should keep a disabled person in work regardless, it states that reasonable adjustments need to be made. It does not state that a disabled person can behave inappropriately.

Anyone who has had experience of work based assessments either as employer or employee knows how stressful it is. Some employers are too afraid to dismiss for fear of ET. whereas in reality some people are unable to work however many adjustments are made.

FLDS - "The manager outlined (in writing) that he must stay outside and carry out his job."

To me and you we know exactly what that means but to an autistic person that isn't clear. He can only come in if it's an emergency. We know what that means, but what is an emergency to an autistic person? He may feel anxious outside, he might hate the loud noise that the trolleys make, he may feel safer in the shop where he knows more work colleagues, there could be no end of reasons that he could class as an emergency. He may not even be able to explain how he is feeling.

Oh come on. You're really reaching. He comes inside because he wants to talk to the girls about his favourite subjects. He's not going in saying he's got an emergency or is he allowed in now?
Or seeming upset. He's making a beeline for the girls that he's repeatedly been told to leave alone. And when he gets told to go outside by a manager, he waits till the manager is out of sight and goes back in.

He's been told repeatedly not to do it. He ignored this so was called in for a meeting where it was explained again with his Mum there. And put in writing. And he's still doing it and being sneaky about it too.

The employers don't owe him a job. His colleagues shouldn't have to have their work effected and if he can't abide by the very clear rules, then he can't do the job.

I do suspect that:

Attractive young man chatting with female colleagues = work place banter and encouraged and reciprocated.

Physically unattractive man or man with clear SEN chatting with same female colleagues = harassment/unwanted attention.

That's the way of the world unfortunately so let's not jump on the DS here as if he's a sex pest or creep when he's likely nothing of the sort.

I have DCs with autism and I applaud your DS, OP, for getting out there and trying his best and I hope he can find another job that suits him better.

@THisbackwithavengeance i think that’s quite unfair. It’s not a matter of attraction or not, the managers are repeatedly telling him to go outside and do the job he is employed to do.

FLDS - No not reaching at all. I just have experience of living with an autistic child, now an adult.