4y/o excluded from school trip to zoo

[Bbblacksheep]

Hello, I’m a mother of a child in pre-school (PS) of a private school.

There is a class outing to the zoo on Monday and I was told on Friday at 3pm that they prefer “not to take him as it would be dangerous for him and his classmates” to do so.

They had told me on Wednesday that they may do so but when I told them that it is not a given that someone will be at home to stay with him, they said “oh we can see what to arrange”. So it was assumed that he would just stay at home(?).

He has been on outings before and used to regularly walk around the city with his classmates in the last year of crèche. I recognize that he is a boisterous 4y/o but nothing out of the extraordinary.

I’m curious to know what other parents/teachers think of this situation? As I’m not sure what to make of it.

I think you are being very naive.
Maybe have a look on the SEND threads and see just how difficult some children with SN are and what parents have to deal with.

A parent is also able to use much more force and the child is often less overwhelmed than if it was a school trip and so there would be less behaviours.

Theres a reason why so many shops now have an autism hour to help reduce the risk of deregulation.

It is not possible to just ‘hold on to them’.
A 1-1 would not be enough to restrain a child.
In our school we will have up to 40 students all with SEND and they do not have 1-1s and it would take multiple staff to restrain 1 child which would leave the rest of the students by themselves.

It is not only dangerous for certain students but it’s also really embarrassing and dehumanising for them to be restrained in public in front of their classmates and random strangers.

Nowadays you can also guarantee that some idiot would film them and put it on the internet too.

I would not want my child going on a trip where there is a high chance they will get injured or get into a situation where they’re highly likely to need to be restrained.

Sadly they really won't.

There is no funding for any schools. No schools will be able to provide 1-1 in this case, and even multiple to 1 if needing to be restrained.

Private schools are much more likely to take the easy option and exclude. Those options aren't so readily available to state schools. There is no evidence to suggest here that the child has a high level of need that requires restraint and 1:1 support. If this was the case, the parents would be aware of it. This is an easy cop out option for a private school. That's it.

Even 1:1s in a mainstream school are not there to literally hang onto and run after children.

It's also why most schools struggle to get 1:1s ... the unreasonable expectations as portrayed on this thread.

Things you can do as a parent if your child is disruptive and overly boisterous at the zoo that you can’t do as a 1-1 or if you are also responsible for a small group of other peoples children

hold your child’s hand very firmly or use a wrist strap

pick your child up and physically move them away from an area

sit on a bench with the child on your lap and restrain your child with your arms around it for half an hour

take your child to a quieter place to calm down

bribe your child with sweets and treats

take them home if they continue to be disruptive

We've occasionally had to exclude children from school trips when we can't guarantee the the safety of them or other children around them.

A friend of mine's 6 year old has been permanently excluded from 3 schools since he started. He's in year 1. They are all trained in de-escalation techniques etc but it's not enough or guaranteed to work. It's not his fault but it's not the schools' either. He attacks the other children, attacks the teachers (biting to the extent of drawing blood and scarring etc).

Mainstream schools aren't equipped to deal with the most extreme of behaviours (funding) and when a child has a serious meltdown in an open space, a single 1:1 (if you're lucky enough to have one) is not enough. It is not safe.

It's a safeguarding issue not a punishment.

We have sometimes invited parents to accompany the child on the trip. Occasionally they do. Sometimes they don't because they know they wouldn't be able to manage the situation in that environment either.

Surely the parents of the young child would be aware of this extreme behaviour prior to this though OldChinaJug. No? I don't disagree that these things can be a problem. But, it's a little bit fishy that the parents have no idea about this, and it just happens to be a private school setting .

My work place is a pre school in a prep school. I would disagree, parent's are paying extra for the nursery and not many would be happy with us excluding their child from a trip. We do have the advantage of flexible staff, many staff in the upper school have EYs and SEND training as well so any trip staff ratios can be altered. Obviously every work place is different but the other (non private) nursery I worked at would take any excuse to exclude a child as it made trips easier if you only took the 'perfect' ones.

Although that doesn't address the issue that the parents have no idea about this high level of 1:1 need until just before the trip. Which is odd isn't it. And if the nursery does work closely with the school, then it would certainly be a taste of things to come if op decided to keep the child in the school. One thing I have noticed is that these type of private / prep schools do not have the same skills or inclination to work with children with additional needs in the way state schools do.

No, it doesn't, if this is really the first the mum has heard about an issue I would definitely be looking to move setting. One thing is the prep I am part of is non-selective at any age and we do have a significant number of ND children throughout the school, learning support is one of our biggest departments. Training is quite intense for all staff, but yes, I would be inclined to think that a selective school, like many privates are, would have few ND children as they wouldn't pass the entrance exam when they progress to that level, so the staff in general would not be as well trained on recognition and support.

I think many of the non selective ones are possibly worse, they accept children in, take the money, then weed them out later on, for things that state school manage adequately well, in order to boost their 11 plus ratings.

We don't do 11+! Obviously you are not a fan of private in any form so we will probably have to leave the discussion here as it's now starting to derail a bit, plus I think OP has left the building.

This sounds so extreme.

Op we are like boiled frogs with our dc behaviour and what we are used to or become accustomed too can seem shocking to others.
. My no 2 is a handful. I remember her screaming in front of relative from over seas who didn't have dc, the relatives face 😂.

I think the way they have done this is hurtful and hasn't been managed well at all.
Hurting for you and him

However try and move past that.

Well then clearly I'm not talking about your school. Private has it place. So it's not true to say I'm not a fan of it in any form. However, I can see where it's failings are.

And get to the bottom of what's going on and whether his behaviour is really this extreme.

They shouldn’t be excluded just because it’s an inconvenience to take them. If there are staff to stay behind with them, there are staff to go with them and act as a one to one
^^
Except as the OP says, the nursery's expectation was for her son to stay home. Because they clearly didn't have the staff to stay.

At nursery there is rarely funding available for one to one. DS has just been going through the initial phase of being assessed for ADHD and they don't start doing that until a child reaches age 6. So that creates 3 - 4 years where there's a potential problem for a certain % of kids. That has massive implications.

There was a child at my son's nursery who was unmanageable. He had to have a one to one on a nursery trip. I helped out on it and I remember him getting away from his one to one who he was supposed to be holding hands with, in a fenced playground. It resulted in a massive standoff and him shouting abuse and chasing episode before she eventually managed to get hold of him. It was not nice to watch and had it happened in another area on the trip it would have been dangerous. The nursery assistant was amazing and very experienced but it was still a level beyond what was reasonable. He was 3 at the time.

He's still in my son's class and there's still massive issues ongoing. School refused to take him on a number of trips in reception and yr1. I think yr2 was the first time he was allowed to.

At Christmas this year the class went to do an event and mum was told he would not be going unless she took him directly to the venue and back. They were really short on volunteers for that trip. I ended up walking backwards and forward 6 times that day because no other parent volunteered and without me they would have been below minimum numbers. They certainly couldnt have coped with this kid.

We are now in yr3. This kid STILL hasn't got a 1 to 1 as there isn't the funding available without him completing an assessment. Mum and Dad refused to allow it for several years and it's only been with a number of increasingly violent and disruptive incidents that the school has been able to push it (I think they basically said if they didn't agree to it, they would refer to social services to force the issue). So hopefully we are now starting to get somewhere

It would be nice to think he will have a one to one by September, but honestly I'm not holding out hope. I suspect in a best case scenario we are probably looking at yr5. COVID has massively delayed where we'd likely be otherwise tbh.

What's been fascinating to see throughout is mum and dad minimise the behaviour and still think his behaviour is normal and he's just a boisterous boy. And because nursery and school aren't allowed to say negative things about a child they've had to go round the houses using euphemisms for his behaviour rather than directly saying stuff especially as mum is incredibly over sensitive and has felt he child has been treated unfairly (he hasn't - the amount of accomodation he's been given often at the expense of others has actually been outrageous). She's pushed back at everything and has had head firmly in the sand as part of her denial. It's not helped by the extent to which her son lies and is deceptive.

The whole thing is a right mess and it's not nice. He needs the support but his parents have actively been a barrier in that. Ultimately we have had to make a massive fuss this year and stick our necks out where others haven't. Because no one wants to upset mum 'because she's so lovely' and everyone has spent years tripping over themselves being nice and polite not wanting to upset or rock the boat. (Whilst quietly moaning out of her earshot). We view it as he needs help and he's never going to get it, without other parents forcing the issue.

Due to my experience of this, I'm now incredibly dubious who say these things come out of the blue. I've spoken to her directly about stuff and it was only after multiple incidents where we had to involve school that she started to take it seriously. Even then she acted and spoke as if it was a shock when it was escalated and had somehow come out of nowhere. It staggered both me and several other parents just how unaware of the issues her son has.

I am doing my best to steer well clear of her rather than get into uncomfortable conversation which will inevitably occur otherwise.

But yes, saying 'oh just get a one to one' or 'just make sure they hold hands' is grossly naive and ignorant of how some kids behave and the resources available to help them. You simply haven't dealt with kids like this and how difficult they are to manage, and how little support is actually available.

OP don't be this Mum. Get on top of it. If this school manages your son out, then deal with it as a positive rather than trying to go into battle. They won't be the right place for your son if this is the case. You need good communication and proper support. Head burying helps noone least of all your son.

They shouldn’t be excluded just because it’s an inconvenience to take them. If there are staff to stay behind with them, there are staff to go with them and act as a one to one

In a school setting they are out in the year above with a class teacher who no doubt already has 30+ children.

There are no extra staff floating around doing nothing. Most of the time staff are doing the jobs of two people.