4y/o excluded from school trip to zoo

[Bbblacksheep]

Hello, I’m a mother of a child in pre-school (PS) of a private school.

There is a class outing to the zoo on Monday and I was told on Friday at 3pm that they prefer “not to take him as it would be dangerous for him and his classmates” to do so.

They had told me on Wednesday that they may do so but when I told them that it is not a given that someone will be at home to stay with him, they said “oh we can see what to arrange”. So it was assumed that he would just stay at home(?).

He has been on outings before and used to regularly walk around the city with his classmates in the last year of crèche. I recognize that he is a boisterous 4y/o but nothing out of the extraordinary.

I’m curious to know what other parents/teachers think of this situation? As I’m not sure what to make of it.

In this case, Easter holidays. Easter is when it is. I have friends working abroad too.

Easter starts NEXT Sunday. This is still Lent. Catholic schools in particular usually stay open for Holy Week.

I recognize that he is a boisterous 4y/o but nothing out of the extraordinary.

This and the school's response are not consistent. You need to pursue.

Either you are in denial or the school are ommiting to tell you things and his behaviour is different to that in school.

Either way, their is a problem you need open honest dialogue about.

In my experience (I have two boys so I'm not totally naive) it's the parents who say their children are just 'a bit boisterous' and seem all confused when extra measures are put in place to protect other children from their own, who tend to be the parents of the really problematic ones. They just don't want to admit it.

This can't be totally out of the blue, I just don't believe that. Whether it's SEN or just that he's badly behaved, there must have been some indication that his behaviour was an issue prior to this, or you would have been posting on the Wednesday when it was first raised.

I work with SEND students and there often a couple of students who we cannot take on trips for their own safety.

For example if you have a child who is a runner, you cannot safely take them somewhere that had multiple hazards and could easily get lost.

We always gave staff members stay behind though to watch the ones staying behind and they always have a really fun day.
We always secretly hope that parents do keep them off though if the student wants to, just so they don’t feel sad that they’re missing out.

You’re not answering much op.
So he has been on trips before, is this trip is for the same age group as your DS so he is not especially young?
You had a hint on Weds but managed to not give it any thought or ask any questions until last thing Friday night? Why didn’t it worry you Weds?
This is the first you’ve heard of his being perhaps troublesome apart from a bit of mutual pushing?

Either your preschool is very bad at communicating or you have your head in the sand. Possibly both?

At my preschool any child we couldn’t take would be an extremely difficult child to manage as we would try to make provision for all. A bit of pushing wouldn’t be an enough. I am a bit surprised that a, ‘May not take your son’ comment didn’t get you asking more. You only seem bothered now it is inconvenient for you, not that your son’s behaviour was a potential problem or you’d have talked about it after Wednesday.

The school need to make time to talk to you, you need to listen and not dismiss behaviour as typical 4 yr old IF they are telling you it’s not, but also if he is just boisterous you perhaps need to find a school that can manage a typical 4 yr old who pushes occasionally. The only child we have excluded from a trip was a Ukrainian lad who had severe ptsd and obviously a language problem, and even then he was due to come with his mother until she couldn’t make it.

What's the back story? If he's a danger to others - something has happened that you haven't mentioned

Is he looking forward to going? I would volunteer to go with them if they’re worried about not being able to cope.

Well, you could take them, and do what their parents have to do all the time - hang onto them. At least they wouldn’t have to miss out.

I would be questioning if he is in the right setting.
Are there issues within the nursery? If they feel they can't take him on the trip, how are they managing within the setting?

I ended up taking my child (SEN) out of mainstream nursery.

Personally I wouldn't feel comfortable with this.

Although having said that, with my eldest son (who is severely disabled and needs one-to-one within his special school) I had the opposite problem.
I was reluctant to send him on a trip for fears for his safety.
They insisted he would be fine and persuaded me to consent to him going.
They lost him on the trip (the police were called) and he was thankfully found by a member of the public.

This

Sounds like you've dropped a ball somewhere re his real behaviour in context of other children

There was often a few “challenging” children who needed to have parents come along to class trips or they couldn’t attend in Nursery. They used to get parents to volunteer as well so you’d have a 1 adult to two child ratio.

You can’t just hang on to them.

Restraining them forcefully and dragging them around is an absolute last case scenario as it is not fair on them, us or the other children.

There are many things we do as parents that are not appropriate to do as teachers, carers etc.

My overall impression is there is a fair bit of denial from you going on. I have a family member with a child now has a diagnosis of ADHD and sensory issues - but it seemed very obvious to all from when he was 2 years of age, that this was the case.

At the same age as your son - 4 years old - he had extremely challenging behaviour; it may well have been called ‘boisterous’, but honestly it was challenging for his parents as well as his childcare. Lots of impulsiveness, non-cooperation and defiance, lots of pushing (and other kids would just occasionally push back when at the end of their tether - there was no respect for what we call ‘bubble’ space between him and others), extremely energetic - why walk when he can run at speed to everything.

His parents were acutely aware that activities like meeting up with other parents and their children at a cafe was an impossibility; as he couldn’t sit and eat or drink without tearing up the environment and often upsetting the other kids. Only you can know how ‘boisterous’ he is, but to be removed from the school trip to the zoo, I’d say there are some serious issues here.

I agree that the approach from the school has been extremely poor to date. Clearly there are behavioural issues and they shouldn’t just now be coming up in respect of a zoo trip.

Now is the time to take the ‘bull by the horns’. Some frank honest discussions need to be had with the school regarding their concerns. Ask they document their concerns. I suggest once you have this, you follow this up with a GP appointment with referral to a paediatrician. As parents you are going to need to get support and resources for how to ‘skill up’ to help your son manage these behaviours.

Otherwise this will be one of many more experiences and social events he will be excluded from. Which isn’t fair on him.

Really? I mean holding their hand. Of course you can do that. Special needs schools do it on outings, rather than just excluding them from everything.

Some children won’t just hold your hand and walk nicely though. They will pull and wiggle and lie down and refuse to move and generally be uncooperative. With my own children my solution was just pick them up when they were being a pain. Can’t do that when you are managing all the children. There needs to be a minimum standard of behaviour or the trip becomes impossible without more help.

No you can't, not unless you have 1:1 care, and even then the physical restraint needed for some determined children is not something many EYs staff would be comfortable with.

On the parent side would you be happy that your well behaved child was not getting the staff's equal attention because they have to physically hold onto another child at all times? What if your child fell over but the practitioner couldn't let go of difficult child's hand?

hahahhaa Yes, this.

Not a teacher's or teaching assistant's job to literally 'hang onto' children. That's not how taking children out works. Especially when they're in charge of groups of children, not just one.

You can’t just hold a hand of someone who wants to run away.

They will kick, scream, punch and it’s highly likely that they will wriggle out and then run straight into a road or go and hide somewhere.
This is not so bad when you’re in an enclosed space but if it’s walking around a city like when we go Xmas shopping then it can be very dangerous.

Not only are they putting their own life at risk but they’re also not the only child there and it’s not possible for every staff member to run after them when the rest of the students are vulnerable.
Some are also physically disabled and need someone to hold on to/push in a wheelchair.

I also have some students that are extremely violent (sometimes MH, sometimes a change in medication etc) and if they get overwhelmed they will attack members of the public and then get into trouble when it’s not their fault.

No parent wants their child running off and getting injured or injuring someone else so they’re more than happy for their child to stay behind.
We sometimes get asked if they can be kept home so they don’t need to take the risk.

Any parent with DCs of high needs will tell you just how difficult everyday tasks like going shopping are.

Although my DD is autistic I’ve never had issues like this with her and I have massive respect for parents who have to find a way to cope with this everyday.

Don’t know what’s so funny. We were referring to runners. A child like that would have a one to one, or should. How would that affect anyone else? It wouldn’t. They shouldn’t be excluded just because it’s an inconvenience to take them. If there are staff to stay behind with them, there are staff to go with them and act as a one to one. I always thought it was a cheek of the mainstream school my son was in to ask me to go on these outings and they would use his one to one as a general TA for everyone else. They were funded to supply someone just for him, so should have done it at all times.

What do you mean by boisterous? Can you describe his behaviour at home or at activities?

You can hold onto them, I do it all the time. The alternative would be to never go anywhere. They should have a one to one. I’m not talking about this particular child at nursery, but children at school with these needs would have a one to one, or be at a special needs school where they somehow manage to cope, even without the one to one ratio.

This is very good advice. You need to be honest with yourself. He obviously has some differences from his peers and is unlikely to just be "a bit boisterous".

Getting the school to write down their concerns and then book a GP appointment and asking for a referral for assessment is also very good advice.

For now I'd do some things that would try and regulate him, like getting him outside in the mornings do that he can get a dose of sunlight, mediation for children, low screen time and lots of protein, especially for breakfast. Exercise is also very important but it does come with a warning, it will make him fitter so perhaps you might need to work on your fitness to keep up.

One more thing I'd suggest is that if they have anymore trips booked you volunteer to go with them.

I'd question your choice of school. Things won't get any better.