Tenants making viewings difficult

[areweonabreak]

We have a flat that we rent out. It was my DH’s flat before we met. It’s been rented out for 10 years now (by only 2 tenants) but we’re now in a position where our own house needs a lot of money spending on it and we want to free up some capital.

we do feel bad for the current tenant, we offered them first refusal to buy the flat (it’s on the market for £90k) but they cannot afford it (even though a mortgage would probably be cheaper than the rent but they’d another thread)

we’ve had a few viewings now but all the feedback is that the tenants have told them that they don’t want to move so they’re put off as they don’t want the hassle.

we live about a 40 minute drive away from the flat so the agents are sorting out all of the viewings. The agents have suggested that it might be easier to sell if it’s empty.

We’re really not sure what to do, they’re on a rolling monthly contract at the moment.

has anyone else been in this position before?

would anyone else recommend selling as a vacant property?

Landlords who own flats are the worst. By making the building what is now regarded as a house in multiple occupation (HMO) they massively increase costs for owner occupiers within the building who have to subsidise their business plans/pensions. And yet they still plead sympathy and never address the reality that they are essentially spongers.

This doesn't make sense.

• renting out a flat does not make the building an HMO
• the OP is not an evil buy to let landlord increasing house prices whilst lining her pension pot. She has provided a service to two sets of tenants over ten years but now wants to stop. If she wasn't providing that service, someone else would need to, as we are all well aware there is not enough social housing to provide even a fraction of those that need it with decent housing.

Whether anyone has ever asked you is irrelevant. Because of the housing situation now, which is not like the housing situation 3, 4, 5 years ago, the position of tenants who have been asked to leave their homes is particularly bad and options particularly limited, and they're more likely to have no choice other than to stay put in order to qualify for emergency 'housing'. Buyers are more aware of that, and the risk of buying with tenants in situ. Hence so many people in this thread saying they'd ask.

And you've just assumed these tenants are looking elsewhere. Nothing OP has said suggests that. Or that they think it's a really good place, come to that. It's possible neither of those things would be a truthful answer. So without making either of those assumptions, what should tenants say if they're asked?

renting out a flat does not make the building an HMO

@dangermousesfriend You are wrong. That's what we thought but check it out with your local authority, the fire authority and the managing agents that by-to-let landlords impose on the property because it is not their primary residence and they find it easier to farm out responsibilities.

You'll find that it is counted as an HMO resulting in massively increased costs which all owners have to share. The difference is that owner occupiers aren't making money on their fat which is their home. But they are subsidising the business schemes of buy-to-let landlords.

One such massive expense are fire prevention systems such as alarms and fire doors. Since Grenfell local authorities have become very keen on this and of course landlords want it because it is often a condition of their liability insurance.

As an occupier in a multiple occupancy building, which is now regarded to all intents and purposes as an HMO, it is probably a good idea to have a fire alarm system. In such a building have no control over the other occupants or indeed some of the eccentric ones that landlords impose because they're just taking the money and don't have to share them.

The thing is though, because landlords generally can't be bothered to manage their own properties owner occupiers are often saddled with a managing agent. They charge a 20 per cent standard management fee on all freeholders plus 20 per cent on all work done within the building. This work will be done by people the agents choose. There are other tradespeople you could choose to set up the fire alarm and test it along with other things like general maintenance and major repairs but they won't work with agents so you're tied to the people who will. Cosy isn't it?

Landlords not only expect their tenants to be at the beck and call whenever they want to arrange viewings, they often expect owner occupiers to facilitate inspections of the common parts or the exterior of their own flat which might involve workmen accessing your private property like your garden for instance an actually coming into your home because that is the only access. This is fairly common in converted buildings rather than purpose built flats.

I don't know about you but I can't think of anyone who would willingly hand over their keys to a stranger but landlords think this is perfectly reasonable and you are being obstructive to say and that it's not convenient to take a day off work Just like they think it is reasonable for everyone else to subsidise them and make life easy for them.

Don't get me started on the ones who think they are performing a humanitarian act by providing a roof for profit over someone else's head.

@BashirWithTheGoodBeard it was not a question of me wanting or no wanting to move. LL was selling so I had to move at some point. He kindly said about it a bit in advance before given us a formal notice. He said that we might be able to stay as he was considered selling to another agency for further renting but being realistic I didn’t count on this and started looking straight away.

I agree with @WombatChocolate that the right question would if the notice was served and when. I wouldn’t put an offer for tenanted property without it unless I was buying to let.

I don’t think you properly understand what constitutes an HMO. A block of privately rented flats - even where they are all owned by the same LL is not an HMO - these are usually one house, rooms in which are occupied by multiple tenants.

Your home is a house in multiple occupation (HMO) if both of the following apply:

at least 3 tenants live there, forming more than 1 household
you share toilet, bathroom or kitchen facilities with other tenants
Your home is a large HMO if both of the following apply:

at least 5 tenants live there, forming more than 1 household
you share toilet, bathroom or kitchen facilities with other tenants

A household is either a single person or members of the same family who live together. A family includes people who are: married or living together - including people in same-sex relationships, relatives or half-relatives, for example grandparents, aunts, uncles, siblings, step-parents and step-children. These do not constitute an HMO.

I don’t think you properly understand what constitutes an HMO. A block of privately rented flats - even where they are all owned by the same LL is not an HMO - these are usually one house, rooms in which are occupied by multiple tenants.

@Rosscameasdoody thanks for your kind explanation but I don't think you properly understand. We have been into this. Believe me when I say we would not part with money we didn't have to or subsidise the business schemes of other people if we didn't have to.

Landlords are an irritant and expense whether you live in one of their properties or are unfortunate enough to share the same building with them.

Oh and I forgot about the ones who are leaseholders and don't see why they have to inform the freeholders or sometimes their own insurance company that they are letting the flat rather than living in it.

They are usually the ones who start with: "Well, two years I met my boyfriend and decided to let out my flat but now we want to start a family and..."

They aren't the ones who impose expensive management agents on you but they are annoying in their own ways.

Basically too many landlords are amateurs.

Basically too many landlords are amateurs
I agree but ultimately this is the fault of the government, they are the ones who strongly incentived buy-to-let landlordism.
The job of government is to regulate the housing market for the benefit of the population. We have a situation where working people cannot afford a family home, the government has FAILED to properly regulate the housing market.

Why don't you stop viewings?!

If you have a mortgage you CANNOT buy with a tenant in situ (if you aren't buying to let) so nobody will proceed with tenants in situ.

I'm scared, how do I legally put it in writing? I have spent today trying to get hold of shelter and can't get through to them or CAB

You just tell the agent you are not doing anymore viewings due to medical issues this is making worse. Send them an email so you have proof. Don't issue anymore agreements to viewings.

Is he selling to owner occupier or new landlord?

Is it a private rental?
do you have somewhere to move to?
you just write to the letting agent saying you withdraw consent to viewings. That's it.

Private rent to a private landlord, no letting agent involved, no notice been given, I have nowhere to go, I am on the council housing list and am on a lettings agents list but I can't get to the top of that list without having been given notice at the very least.

The fact that you/they have paid out a lot of money in rent doesn't make it your property and the OP may not be in a position to sell it at below market value. I don’t understand this attitude. It’s a free market, the OP owns the property, the tenants are paying for a service and unless they’re very naive they understand that because they don’t own it, they can be given notice as circumstances dictate.

I imagine that the tendants buying the place a reduced price wouldn’t sell it later at a below market value price? They would sell it at the best price possible.

Just serve them notice. 3 monthe easy but more likely to be 6 months if they are determined. As a landlord you are entitled to evict to allow you to put the flat on the open market. Its also easier to do any minor repairs if the flat is empty

Late to this conversation and I hope you got sorted but my advice would be to give them notice. I tried to sell my house with occupants to another landlord so they could stay. They have done everything and anything to sabotage my sale - I wouldn’t mind but I have been really good to them - could have given them notice and sold to anyone but didn’t want to see them homeless. Since being told I was selling they have trashed house , won’t leave when viewings have arranged and proceed to interfere when prospective buyers come . I always give them several days notice - we agreed 1/2 days for viewings and now they don’t even pay the rent. In the end I gave them notice - should have listened to estate agency as it has been a headache: I’m not a buy to let landlord but don’t make any money on the house, it used to be my former home. Wanted to cry when I saw the state of it , dirty messy and cluttered and they have had no respect for anything - it was beautiful before they moved in. Seems to me that landlords gave few rights - it’s no wonder they are selling up in droves

So a bit of an update, the flat has sold. The people who owned the flat next door put in an offer and agreed to keep on the tenants. We got 4 offers on the same day but went with the one that we thought was easiest overall for all of us. It’s with the solicitors at the moment but we’re hoping it won’t be too long before it goes through

Well that's a happy ending for you all! 👏🏻