The pronoun 'they'...

[heartbroken22]

I find it hard reading articles with they. I'm not sure if I've got a disability or something but if the article is talking about one person and it says they, my brain automatically inflates trying to make sense of it and I turn off like I'm confused. Not here to offend. But it's just hard trying to process it.

@Soontobe60 you're another one who believes gender = sex. There are cultures on our planet who accept there can be more than 2 genders - who are you to say they are wrong? It's a Western POV. I'm not arrogant enough to presume it is correct, are you?

For me it is a simple matter of politeness. It's a shame you can't be bothered to be polite. This is real life, we often have to interact with restraints we may not like. This is no different.

But we don’t refer to ANY people in derogatory terms about their skin colour, intellectual ability or physical ability. Those words that people used to use became derogatory terms.
We do, however, refer to males in specific ways and females in specific sex based ways - woman, man, she, he, boy, girl, etc. and none of these are derogatory terms. If a person decides that it’s harmful to them to be identified as male when they want to be seen as female, or sexless, then thats their issue. We are not here to ‘be kind’ to the whole world! It’s not kind to expect someone to deny the reality in front of them.

Yes - em but now we are increasingly being told to use they even when the persons gender is known

No, I believe gender is a constructed set of ‘rules’ that differs from time to time and from place to place. It certainly does not equal sex.
For example, people start off when pregnant with ‘gender reveal’ parties where the balloon is pink or blue depending on the sex. Go into a kids clothing department, it’s full of pink ‘girls’ dresses with ‘be kind’ motifs and blue boys t shirts with dinosaurs. Even the lovely Suzie Green of Mermaids fame thought her son must have been a girl because he played with girls toys. The rules around gender are harmful because they box children into distinct categories. Even the term used for girly that like ‘boy’ things - tomboy - implies they must be a different sex!
I’m buggered if I’m going to ‘be polite’ about something that is so harmful, particularly as a mother of 2 daughters.

I change my beliefs when the evidence causes me to and when it’s morally the right thing to do.

This meets neither of those criteria.

This is not just about words and it’s deeply dishonest of you to pretend it is. This is about forcing the belief that internal gender identity is primary and must replace sex in the public sphere. And then causes real and genuine harm to women and girls across multiple areas.

The fact that you have to lie to ‘invent’ what I am saying, rather than address the real points I have made throughout this thread, shows how weak your case is.

I have never before come across a debate where one side, your side, just lies about what their opponents are saying. It’s shameful. And such a clear demonstration of the vacuity of your case.

I think journalists perhaps do need to proofread a bit more when using they pronouns for a specific person but referencing others too.

Sam, who is non-binary, performed for a crowd of both Republicans and Democrats, with the bill having been supported by members of both sides, and was accompanied by backing singers and a keyboardist. Needless to say, they absolutely smashed it.

Is that saying Sam plus the backing singers and keyboardist smashed it, or just Sam? The first would be nice, but I suspect they mean the latter.

Or

Lovato and Ehrich dated for around seven months before breaking up in September 2020.

They came out as non-binary in May 2021 after “a lot of healing and self-reflective work”.

Both of them? Saying "Lovato came out..." would be much clearer.

Yes, context helps, but not in every case.

Obviously I got the trans reference, but OP's post said "if the article is talking about one person and it says they, my brain automatically inflates trying to make sense of it and I turn off like I'm confused". How on earth has she coped all her life then?! Grammatically speaking, "they" is so often used as a generic "he or she" for 1 person, and always has been outside of the trans context.

This is just part of the evolution of language. Things change. I really cannot see the problem with using people’s preferred pronouns. I really can’t.

Oh so you know the poster? Thought not. Even if someone has not been officially diagnosed that doesn't mean they don't have one. What we do know is that the OP finds it confusing so maybe we should have some empathy - or are you demonstrating once again that your "be kind" actually only refers to some people?

I agree, this is really confusing. That's 2 people in the article though. Claiming you have some kind of disability (?!) re: processing an article about 1 person is disingenuous and silly. I admit I find the whole pronoun thing a bit annoying but "they" for 1 person is not exactly a new concept.

Maybe read the thread then? It's not that simple. Evolution refers to natural, organic change not forcing a change from above. You have a very anglo-centric view of language. Do you speak any other languages? It is very hard in English to change pronouns consistently (even some pronoun promoters slip up!) and in some languages it is much harder.

When did 'he and 'she' stop referring to sex and start referring to gender?

If it's one four letter word you struggle with, it's not a bloody disability, it's one word you struggle with. Unless OP is now going to conveniently drip feed that she's dyslexic and struggles with all words.

I know this sounds cynical, and may be a bit off topic, but I personally read it as OP shielding herself from accusations about not being inclusive - by accusing all those who disagree with her of not being woke/inclusive (how dare you insult anyone with a disability etc). :D

Read the thread, posters are pointing out the problems. Or pop on the feminist boards and ask there. Or ask Nicola Sturgeon, or the CEO of Stonewall, why they won’t refer to the rapist Isla by Isla’s preferred pronouns.

Most of us can’t understand things we have not read up on. And then once we have read up on them, we can.

I don’t see the issue understanding it at all. Sometimes using they/them about someone who is clearly male/female is difficult and mistakes are made. Apart from a few militant idiots, most people who use they/them are totally understanding, as long as people are trying and not being passive aggressive.
Personally I like the idea of language changing and knowing if someone is male or female not being as important.

They is used when sex is unknown "I called the teacher to say what they would say". That's all fine and standard English.

What is not standard and is clunky and awkward is a phrase like "Susan took their report to the boss. They then went for lunch and bought sushi". Who went to lunch? The non-binary Susan on her own, or with the boss? It also sounds wrong to say "X person (singlular) is writing their disseration on Art. They (plural) travelled to Paris and went to the Louvre where they saw the Mona Lisa." Because we have already established that the person we are talking about is singular, and then going on to use plural pronouns jarrs.

And in what situations is the sex of people important? And which sex class it it that is being disadvantaged when we pretend sex is not important?

And you do understand that this movement is NOT saying, ‘we are all just people! We are all the same!’ Thus movement is still about highlighting difference. And they are saying the difference that matters is gender identity and that is how we separate people.

And that is harmful as it allows men in with women in ways that harms and hurts women and girls.

Totally. And very childish too.

And finally, can I just point out that telling people to call you ‘they’ does not in anyway stop people from perceiving you as female or male. And so it does not stop you from getting all the disadvantage/ harassment or advantage associated with your actually sex.

If you want to see an end to being male or female mattering at times it really shouldn’t, you need to engage in the long hard slog of changing social and cultural attitudes to women and men. Calling yourself or someone else ‘they’ will never achieve that and nor is it intended to. If anything, it encourages an attitude that boxes other people into the sexist stereotypes that ‘they’ are trying to opt out of.

I completely agree

Exactly! And if you've ever learned any other languages you know that pronouns can shift to something that could mean one person or two for formal or informal situations. Bad writing aside, it's usually really clear by context what is going on.

Calling someone ‘they’ isn’t the same as saying their sex does not matter. It’s just accepting someone’s preferences. Refusing to respect pronouns just makes us all sound like bigots which doesn’t do our cause as feminists any good either.

So Nicola Sturgeon was wrong not to call the rapist Isla ‘her’.? Female victims of male violence should refer to their attackers as ‘she’. Women in single sex provision trying to explain their fear or discomfort of men in that provision should refer to them as ‘she’? They should not be permitted the language they need to express their fears and concerns? If a man enters the changing room, how do women express that concern if they have to call the man a female?

It’s not just about the word. It works to erode women’s abilities to maintain single sex provision and assert boundaries. That is why compliance with pronouns is pressed so hard.

Make a small change and that falls down though.
"Alex took their report to the boss. They then went for lunch and bought sushi". Alex could be male or female so without knowing you'd say they- standard practice.

"X person (singlular) is writing their disseration on Art. They (plural) travelled to Paris and went to the Louvre where they saw the Mona Lisa.". 'They' isn't exclusively plural and is acceptable and commonly used in this scenario as singular.

Those are extreme cases and mostly I think a victims right to refer to their attacker how they wish far out weights any right to someone asking for people to use different pronouns. But when it’s Sam from next door I’m happy to respect them. I don’t think refusing to using they/them when most people ask you to is going to prevent the more damaging side of trans ideology. There is a middle ground. Trans people do exist. Young people will want to experiment with identity. It doesn’t mean when have to put them all on blockers or let them into female only hospital wards.