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The pronoun 'they'...

163 replies

heartbroken22 · 14/02/2023 10:05

I find it hard reading articles with they. I'm not sure if I've got a disability or something but if the article is talking about one person and it says they, my brain automatically inflates trying to make sense of it and I turn off like I'm confused. Not here to offend. But it's just hard trying to process it.

OP posts:
chineapplepunks · 14/02/2023 10:36

"Oh someone has left their jacket at the bar. I'll leave it there in case they come back."

Pronouns in action!

WeWereInParis · 14/02/2023 10:39

tabulahrasa · 14/02/2023 10:12

I think articles written using they as a person’s pronoun are often really badly written - I’ve noticed quite a few times that they is used confusingly where you have to go back and work out whether it means the person or something else also mentioned.

For example writing about Demi Levato and Disney and a sentence using they where it meant you didn’t actually know who was meant and it would have been much clearer if it had just been written as Demi or Disney.

I'd agree with this. If a sentence references two people (let's say Sam Smith and one other person) and then says "they" it's not clear whether the writer means both people, or just Sam Smith.

But then that's just bad writing, and can also apply if two men are mentioned and then "he" is badly used so it's not referring to who you think it is.

OkPedro · 14/02/2023 10:41

Why are people pretending that an article written about a man referring to the man as they is how language has always been used. No we would have referred to a man as he or a woman as she. Now we have so many gender identities that people have made up just to feel a bit special.
I will use they if I don't know the sex of a person or when referring to more than one person or thing. That isn't what the op was talking about
You're either male or female you can't be neither.. what you wear or call yourself has nothing to do with your sex

Redebs · 14/02/2023 10:52

The neutral singular pronoun is 'it'.
'They' is plural, although commonly used for singular.

ImustLearn2Cook · 14/02/2023 10:52

They has been used as a singular pronoun for centuries. I think your real issue is that you don’t like singular they being used for people who don’t identify as male or female.

www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/singular-nonbinary-they

In an 1881 letter, Emily Dickinson wrote "Almost anyone under the circumstances would have doubted if [the letter] were theirs, or indeed if they were themself." People have used singular 'they' to describe someone whose gender is unknown for a long time, but the nonbinary use of 'they' is relatively new.

Much has been written on they, and we aren’t going to attempt to cover it here. We will note that they has been in consistent use as a singular pronoun since the late 1300s; that the development of singular they mirrors the development of the singular you from the plural you, yet we don’t complain that singular you is ungrammatical; and that regardless of what detractors say, nearly everyone uses the singular they in casual conversation and often in formal writing.

They is taking on a new use, however: as a pronoun of choice for someone who doesn’t identify as either male or female. This is a different use than the traditional singular they, which is used to refer to a person whose gender isn’t known or isn’t important in the context, as in the example above. The new use of they is direct, and it is for a person whose gender is known or knowable, but who does not identify as male or female. If I were introducing a friend who preferred to use the pronoun they, I would say, “This is my friend, Jay. I met them at work.”

pointythings · 14/02/2023 10:52

@OkPedro guess what? Language changes. It adapts to the world and its people.

The gender binary is actually a pretty Eurocentric view. Other cultures are available. Maybe not get so hung up about it all? Respecting how someone wants to be referred to won't hurt.

heartbroken22 · 14/02/2023 10:52

@WeWereInParis @tabulahrasa article I read was about Sam smith and someone else. Spot on!

OP posts:
DuplicateUserName · 14/02/2023 10:53

OkPedro · 14/02/2023 10:41

Why are people pretending that an article written about a man referring to the man as they is how language has always been used. No we would have referred to a man as he or a woman as she. Now we have so many gender identities that people have made up just to feel a bit special.
I will use they if I don't know the sex of a person or when referring to more than one person or thing. That isn't what the op was talking about
You're either male or female you can't be neither.. what you wear or call yourself has nothing to do with your sex

Your last sentence there is exactly what the OP is talking about.

It's the fake, 'Oh I'm not sure if I've got a disability or something' that's giving people the hump.

Come on OP, you can do better than taking a cheap shot and bringing 'disability' into it Hmm

ComtesseDeSpair · 14/02/2023 10:55

OkPedro · 14/02/2023 10:41

Why are people pretending that an article written about a man referring to the man as they is how language has always been used. No we would have referred to a man as he or a woman as she. Now we have so many gender identities that people have made up just to feel a bit special.
I will use they if I don't know the sex of a person or when referring to more than one person or thing. That isn't what the op was talking about
You're either male or female you can't be neither.. what you wear or call yourself has nothing to do with your sex

The OP’s post was transparently disingenuous, but ignoring that, what they actually asked was whether they have a disability because they can’t read “they” in a sentence about an individual and understand what it means. They didn’t actually make any mention in their post at all of whether it was to do with sex.

They can be used in the singular where you don’t know an individual’s sex or where an individual would prefer you not to refer to it. Whether or not one thinks gender identity is daft, the sentence structure doesn’t suddenly cease to make sense in the latter case, when it made sense in the former.

heartbroken22 · 14/02/2023 10:58

I tried reading something else again to make sense.

'I’m Not Here to Make Friends" music video that showed hyper-sexualized scenes with the singer wearing nipple clasps and dancing sexually while liquid was squirted into their face.'

Again 'their' face made me read twice. Did they mean the fellow dancers face? Ohh I get it they meant sams face. Think it would be easier if their name was written next to they/their (Sam) in brackets for the sake of reading. Some of the bbc articles do it and honestly it makes life so much easier.

OP posts:
YesILikeItToo · 14/02/2023 10:58

It seems to me that the subject of the article tends to fade away and not be as strongly in focus as if they had been written about as he or she. I think reading iMustLearn2cook’s explanation of the historic uses helps to explain why.

Buttalapasta · 14/02/2023 11:01

Cam22 · 14/02/2023 10:17

The pronoun “they” is a plural form of a verb. The end.

I have no idea what this means!

I use "they" if I don't know if a person is male or female e.g. someone is coming to collect their package later. If you do know, I agree it is confusing. I guess those who say it's easy don't have to cope with multiple students changing their pronouns (but not their appearance) and speaking more than one language!

Allthegoodnamesarechosen · 14/02/2023 11:02

Tempone · 14/02/2023 10:22

They has always been used though? When you don't know the sex or gender you say "they ...."

But how often does that happen? If you are working in the same office as someone , and you want to refer to them in their absence, you don’t say ‘them’, you say ‘him’ or ‘her’. Because you know they ( plural) are people, not neuter objects. You know what sex they are. You recognise them as human, not an object like a chair.

I suppose what they’ means is not that up the person is somehow cloned into multiples, but that they wish to be seen as ‘special’.

Allthegoodnamesarechosen · 14/02/2023 11:05

ComtesseDeSpair · 14/02/2023 10:33

I just used it about 10 minutes ago, to ask my colleague “our new Acquisitions Director in Bermuda; does anyone know if they’ve been recruited yet? And when they might start?” because I don’t know their name or sex. It’s really not that complicated, regardless of your view on gender identity.

And when they have been recruited, will you still call them them? Not she or he. …..okay. 🤭😎

EverlastingRose · 14/02/2023 11:06

Cam22 · 14/02/2023 10:17

The pronoun “they” is a plural form of a verb. The end.

Thank you for that, Professor Chomsky 😭

MarkWithaC · 14/02/2023 11:07

ComtesseDeSpair · 14/02/2023 10:33

I just used it about 10 minutes ago, to ask my colleague “our new Acquisitions Director in Bermuda; does anyone know if they’ve been recruited yet? And when they might start?” because I don’t know their name or sex. It’s really not that complicated, regardless of your view on gender identity.

It's about context though. Obviously people would use and understand 'they' in your example; but to use another from this thread, 'writing about Demi Levato and Disney and a sentence using they where it meant you didn’t actually know who was meant' is a different matter.

midgemadgemodge · 14/02/2023 11:07

To be honest
Using sex based pronouns is unnecessary
And harmful- it embedded the notion that you should treat males and females differently

It's about time we let go of the need to make unnecessary sex distinctions

Sex sometimes matters but mostly it should matter a lot less than it does

ComtesseDeSpair · 14/02/2023 11:07

Allthegoodnamesarechosen · 14/02/2023 11:05

And when they have been recruited, will you still call them them? Not she or he. …..okay. 🤭😎

If they specifically asked me to, sure. Just as I’d happily call them Mrs if they wanted me to, regardless of my personal views on women changing their name upon marriage.

JFDIYOLO · 14/02/2023 11:11

I'm very happy to use 'they' instead of the clunkier 'he or she' when I'm being hypothetical and inclusive.

And especially instead of the default 'he', which I really notice now in older documentaries and publications. It feels glaring.

'He' does NOT include she! It specifically excludes half the planet.

So 'they' feels serviceable and inclusive there.

pointythings · 14/02/2023 11:13

Allthegoodnamesarechosen · 14/02/2023 11:05

And when they have been recruited, will you still call them them? Not she or he. …..okay. 🤭😎

When that person has been recruited, if you are halfway polite, you will refer to them as they would like to be referred to. That's basic good manners, wherever you stand in the gender debate. Hope that clears it up for you.

ClearMoth · 14/02/2023 11:13

Cam22 · 14/02/2023 10:17

The pronoun “they” is a plural form of a verb. The end.

A verb? What verb?

IWineAndDontDine · 14/02/2023 11:16

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

This ^

ImustLearn2Cook · 14/02/2023 11:17

The word ‘you’ can be used in the singular to refer to one person or as a plural to refer to a group of people. Do you find this as confusing as the word ‘they’ being used in the singular?

If I were to say the following, would you be confused? ‘I was meant to meet my friend at the cafe at 2pm but they never showed up.’

Wouldn’t it be obvious that they was being used in the singular because I said friend not friends?

Do we not determine the singular or plural use of ‘they’ by the context of the sentence it is used in?

constantsky · 14/02/2023 11:19

"I have a new employee starting with me, can you log them on the system"

"Of course, what's their name?"

"DD has a new teacher coming in, I hope they're better than the last one!"

"Each student needs to remember to submit their essay today"

"When a customer comes in, it’s important that they feel welcome"

"I don't like Costa, I think their coffee is worse than Starbucks"

'They' has been used as a singular pronoun when referring to a person of unknown gender or a genderless entity such as a corporation, and I can guarantee that you've used it many many times yourself and never taken issue with it.

Basically, I'm sure you can cope.

rainbowtwist · 14/02/2023 11:21

heartbroken22 · 14/02/2023 10:58

I tried reading something else again to make sense.

'I’m Not Here to Make Friends" music video that showed hyper-sexualized scenes with the singer wearing nipple clasps and dancing sexually while liquid was squirted into their face.'

Again 'their' face made me read twice. Did they mean the fellow dancers face? Ohh I get it they meant sams face. Think it would be easier if their name was written next to they/their (Sam) in brackets for the sake of reading. Some of the bbc articles do it and honestly it makes life so much easier.

You haven't apologised for using disability to suit your agenda, why not?