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The pronoun 'they'...

163 replies

heartbroken22 · 14/02/2023 10:05

I find it hard reading articles with they. I'm not sure if I've got a disability or something but if the article is talking about one person and it says they, my brain automatically inflates trying to make sense of it and I turn off like I'm confused. Not here to offend. But it's just hard trying to process it.

OP posts:
Buttalapasta · 14/02/2023 11:24

midgemadgemodge · 14/02/2023 11:07

To be honest
Using sex based pronouns is unnecessary
And harmful- it embedded the notion that you should treat males and females differently

It's about time we let go of the need to make unnecessary sex distinctions

Sex sometimes matters but mostly it should matter a lot less than it does

I disagree. We use sex based pronouns to be more accurate about who we're referring to, to avoid ambiguity. There is a lot of sex discrimination in the world but this ain't it! Plus you seem to be referring only to English. Pronouns vary so much in different languages: some are already gender neutral, some refer to family relationships or even spatial location with respect to the speaker. Insisting that everyone has to be compelled to use different pronouns on pain of punishment is both unrealistic and dangerous. That's not how language works.

bellinisurge · 14/02/2023 11:25

Sometimes it reads easily. Usually if you are talking/reading/hearing about something where the identity of the individual doesn't matter E.g. "If anyone wants some assistance, they can let reception know".
It looks a bit clunky when you know the identity of the individual. "I spoke to Paul. They is going to ask at reception". What looks narcissistic and ridiculous is "Hi, my name is Paul. I use they/them pronouns".
It's a tedious phase and it will pass.

CaptainMyCaptain · 14/02/2023 11:30

When 'they' is used for a person of unknown gender, as in the examples above, you would use 'are' not 'is' which is just making a point. If you are using 'you' to a single person you wouldn't say 'you is'.

bobbytorq · 14/02/2023 11:34

Cam22 · 14/02/2023 10:17

The pronoun “they” is a plural form of a verb. The end.

Absolutely. People can identify as they wish but don't try and fuck with grammar.

Bitofhelpoverhere · 14/02/2023 11:35

Tempone · 14/02/2023 10:22

They has always been used though? When you don't know the sex or gender you say "they ...."

Exactly. You would only use it in a specific and quite limited context. And likely when you are only referring to one person once. Not when you are writing a whole article/ paper referring to multiple people, and where you do know the sex of people, as does everyone you are communicating with, but have to try to remember that you can’t refer to their sex, and you have to remember which of the multiple people you know, this applies to.

Let’s not pretend it’s quite the cognitive demand and yes, it is confusing.

Buttalapasta · 14/02/2023 11:35

bobbytorq · 14/02/2023 11:34

Absolutely. People can identify as they wish but don't try and fuck with grammar.

But they isn't a verb!! I don't get what the poster means.

BigFeelingsMoment · 14/02/2023 11:38

The number of people hiding behind “grammar” is astounding when they cannot correctly identify the difference between a pronoun and a verb.

thecatsthecats · 14/02/2023 11:38

new2mn · 14/02/2023 10:19

Putting aside all the political stuff, I've never had a problem with this, as I've always used "they" when the person's identity (as in actual identity, not gender identity) and therefore gender is unknown. It's a fairly longstanding grammatical tradition isn't it?

Also ignoring the recent conflation, but I had a huge row with a former boss about this.

He insisted that all customer documentation must use he/she pronouns to describe customer actions/third parties unknown, and absolutely refused to accept that you might write something like, "When a child is busy, they often", etc

Even when I produced copious style guides illustrating the use case.

But then he used quote marks for emphasis, so what did he know, eh.

CaptainMyCaptain · 14/02/2023 11:38

bobbytorq · 14/02/2023 11:34

Absolutely. People can identify as they wish but don't try and fuck with grammar.

'They' isn't a verb and never has been.

Soontobe60 · 14/02/2023 11:41

pointythings · 14/02/2023 10:52

@OkPedro guess what? Language changes. It adapts to the world and its people.

The gender binary is actually a pretty Eurocentric view. Other cultures are available. Maybe not get so hung up about it all? Respecting how someone wants to be referred to won't hurt.

😂😂😂😂😂😂

Jux · 14/02/2023 11:44

ComtesseDeSpair · 14/02/2023 10:33

I just used it about 10 minutes ago, to ask my colleague “our new Acquisitions Director in Bermuda; does anyone know if they’ve been recruited yet? And when they might start?” because I don’t know their name or sex. It’s really not that complicated, regardless of your view on gender identity.

This.

OP if you want a serious discussion on the subject of trans go to Sex & Gender....

picklemewalnuts · 14/02/2023 11:46

It's perfectly understandable in some situations- often very specific like the ones already quoted. Short and with no opportunity for confusion.

In other situations, longer passages where the subject isn't obvious or there are more than one subject- yes it certainly can be hard to follow. Skilful writers fine a way around it.

I was confused in real life. Someone told me the child no longer did [hobby].

I misunderstood and assumed the club where the hobby happened no longer offered the hobby. I suggested other places the hobby could be done, as 'they' no longer did it.

Of course 'they' was actually she, and she didn't do it because she doesn't want to, not because they don't do it anymore. 🤯
I it really does make life harder.

CaptainMyCaptain · 14/02/2023 11:49

picklemewalnuts · 14/02/2023 11:46

It's perfectly understandable in some situations- often very specific like the ones already quoted. Short and with no opportunity for confusion.

In other situations, longer passages where the subject isn't obvious or there are more than one subject- yes it certainly can be hard to follow. Skilful writers fine a way around it.

I was confused in real life. Someone told me the child no longer did [hobby].

I misunderstood and assumed the club where the hobby happened no longer offered the hobby. I suggested other places the hobby could be done, as 'they' no longer did it.

Of course 'they' was actually she, and she didn't do it because she doesn't want to, not because they don't do it anymore. 🤯
I it really does make life harder.

What if there were two children who no longer did the hobby. Would you have found that difficult? Maybe you could just have asked for clarification. Simple.

Soontobe60 · 14/02/2023 11:52

pointythings · 14/02/2023 11:13

When that person has been recruited, if you are halfway polite, you will refer to them as they would like to be referred to. That's basic good manners, wherever you stand in the gender debate. Hope that clears it up for you.

No, it’s coercive.

DappledThings · 14/02/2023 11:52

It is jarring when the sex of an individual is known. It immediately becomes awkward to read.

When people wrote here about a dingle child and and constantly use DC/they rather than DD/she or DS/he it sounds forced and is distracting from the content.

Anothernameanother · 14/02/2023 11:53

Buttalapasta · 14/02/2023 11:24

I disagree. We use sex based pronouns to be more accurate about who we're referring to, to avoid ambiguity. There is a lot of sex discrimination in the world but this ain't it! Plus you seem to be referring only to English. Pronouns vary so much in different languages: some are already gender neutral, some refer to family relationships or even spatial location with respect to the speaker. Insisting that everyone has to be compelled to use different pronouns on pain of punishment is both unrealistic and dangerous. That's not how language works.

The poster doesn't mention punishment.

They just said that sex-based pronouns are problematic.

They didn't even suggest that anyone change using them.

It's possible to acknowledge that having different pronouns for males and females is unnecessary, without suggesting that we actually change anything

Ps. I used they to refer to the poster because I don't know their gender or pronoun preference. Everyone understood who I was writing about, because they're not idiots.

NancyPickford · 14/02/2023 11:58

Why have a few posters said that "they" is the plural of a verb? And some agreed with them? "They" is a pronoun, not a verb, it's never been a verb or part of a verb. It's a bit ironic to be pontificating on grammar when their grasp of it is so poor. (And that final "their" in my post is because I don't know the sex of these posters).

Buttalapasta · 14/02/2023 12:03

And that final "their" in my post is because I don't know the sex of these posters
To be fair, English doesn't have sexed plural pronouns so it would always be their (referring back to posters).😂
I thought the original poster was making an obscure point but yes, it was probably just confusion regarding grammar.

JarByTheDoor · 14/02/2023 12:05

I have a disability that makes incongruous or unintuitive pronoun use very difficult and uncomfortable for me, though I don't think it affects my understanding of others' non-standard pronoun use. I'm fed up of people sweeping away my disability as unimportant compared with someone's desire to control people's verbal representation of how they perceive them. Singular they was pretty much never used for an individual of known sex (or whose sex should be known given the level of acquaintance) until recently, and my brain interprets having to refer to a known individual as "they" as being required to speak untruth.

PaigeMatthews · 14/02/2023 12:06

When people wrote here about a dingle child and and constantly use DC/they rather than DD/she or DS/he it sounds forced and is distracting from the content.

and here I was always thinking dc stood for darling child, rather than dingle child. 😂

pointythings · 14/02/2023 12:06

Soontobe60 · 14/02/2023 11:52

No, it’s coercive.

Now you're just being silly.

I prefer to be addressed as 'Mrs' pointythings rather than 'Ms' pointythings. If people ask, I will tell them this. Is that coercive too?

Forfrigz · 14/02/2023 12:07

I remember being about 14, this was long long before the current gender palaver ever happened, and trying to write a story using they as a singular person pronoun. I realised it was pretentious garbage after about 2 pages and put it in the bin

DappledThings · 14/02/2023 12:07

PaigeMatthews · 14/02/2023 12:06

When people wrote here about a dingle child and and constantly use DC/they rather than DD/she or DS/he it sounds forced and is distracting from the content.

and here I was always thinking dc stood for darling child, rather than dingle child. 😂

Darn it! Why would autocorrect do that to me?!

Buttalapasta · 14/02/2023 12:11

Anothernameanother · 14/02/2023 11:53

The poster doesn't mention punishment.

They just said that sex-based pronouns are problematic.

They didn't even suggest that anyone change using them.

It's possible to acknowledge that having different pronouns for males and females is unnecessary, without suggesting that we actually change anything

Ps. I used they to refer to the poster because I don't know their gender or pronoun preference. Everyone understood who I was writing about, because they're not idiots.

Language has evolved over thousands of years. It is not possible to enforce a change that hasn't evolved gradually without people tripping up or misunderstanding. That is why I don't think it is right to insist on pronouns. People make mistakes.

Your post suggests that sexed pronouns are inherently sexist. This is nonsense.

Gatehouse77 · 14/02/2023 12:12

'I’m Not Here to Make Friends" music video that showed hyper-sexualized scenes with the singer wearing nipple clasps and dancing sexually while liquid was squirted into their face.'

The example given doesn't illustrate the point you're trying to make as if were the plural it would say "their faces".