Any dairy farmers please?

[RedRedWhiney]

I'm pescitarian.

Have been slowly consuming less dairy. This to me seems so horrific to immediately stop consuming any dairy.

However, Google search shows the extremems of the debate, so I would really value the input of dairy farmers

Male dairy cows are most certainly not shot at birth in the UK.

They have a reasonably high value for beef - I'm not a dairy farmer but we buy the male calves that are born in local dairy farms and rear them for beef on our farm.

They are not the only source of beef though - we also have what are called suckler cows which exists primary to produce beef cattle from male and female calves. We also use their slurry as fertiliser for fields that they and our 950 sheep and 1300ish lambs graze on in summer.

A lot of the stats are extrapolated from the very extremes of the industry and are based on very intensive dairy systems. Particularly the water one. I don't think they would be representative of most family dairy farms in the UK.

Not all dairy cows are artificially inseminated, but AI is actually a far gentler process and far less likely to result in injury for the cow than being jumped on by a bull.

Antibiotic use is very very strictly controlled and there are very robust processes to ensure that the milk from any cows that have been treated with antibiotics doesn't enter the food chain.

Dairy cows do have a shorter lifespan than e.g suckler cows

It can be though, and it’s not necessarily low grade. There is a farm near us that takes the male dairy calves and raises them for meat. So they live for a couple of years rather than being slaughtered for veal. The meat had been used to supply a high end restaurant (I’ve forgotten which chef, but a well known name). But the yield is lower than meat cows

That's interesting - thanks!

It seems ludicrous to continue this practice when oat milk tastes so good.

The milk of a cow is not ours, we haven't evolved to need it, and we take it without consent

You are aware cows drink water aren’t you? 🤣 Jesus. People will grab in to any straw to defend their meat eating. I’ve read it all. They’ll never own the fact that they simply don’t care.

All I’m waiting for is “cows actually enjoy being slaughtered” 🙄 the price of meat will sky rocket at some point and it’ll become a luxury item. People will then be forced to consume other products.

DD and Dh eat meat and drink milk, I’m vegan. I’ve given visitors vegan milk -“Alpro my cuppa “ and they can’t tell the difference.

There's truths, untruths, and then there is the internet. Where you can find all the information you could possibly want, that proves beyond any doubt whatever it is you want to believe. One way or the other, and every shade in between (and a huge quantity of cowbullshit as well).

I don't eat sea fish because of the environmental impact. Plus it's pretty grim how they die. I never eat farmed salmon either. Big impact plus lots of fish meal in food.

Everything we eat has an impact. Reducing food waste should be a priority.

I worked in the industry but not a farmer or invested in it personally. This is an extreme/worst case scenario. Shop smaller! Buy from local dairys!

I am not a dairy farmer
AI is used on lots of livestock and tbh it’s safer than the bull. Many farmer do use a bull but it tends to be a non dairy breed. Not all dairy cows breed pure calves. You wouldn’t want to keep and dairy bill as they’re vicious. Usually something like an Aberdeen Angus is used. Small and produces good meat so you can rear the male calves and sell at a good profit. I dont know anyone who shoots the males at birth there’s far too much demand for mince beef.
Yes they take the calves so we can have the milk but the cow will only bother for a few hours. And there are farmers now practicing more natural methods I think cream of Galloway are one. Historically we took the calf off the cow for the night so we could get the milk in the morning.
Dairy cows are very well looked after as if they’re not they don’t produce milk or get in calf. There are improvements that could be made and if the farmers were paid more per litre then the welfare laws could be changed.

Broiler production for cheap supermarket chicken is awful from start to finish they chickens are artificially inseminated, only mucked out between batches, have lights on constantly or for long period so they keep eating and getting fat, they are swept up for catching at night to be taken to slaughter and slaughter process is grim. ( I am well aware or the slaughter process for other animals) so I don’t eat supermarket chicken and I keep my own for eggs

Anyone who has spent any time with cows knows very well that they don't do things they don't want to.

Dairy cows are usually pretty keen to get into the milking parlour for their cake. They don't require much encouragement.

Whenever people come out with this sort of stuff it's very clear they've never been anywhere remotely near the hind legs of a pissed off bovine that doesn't want to do the thing you want it to.

Problem is that as a society we've become too used to cheap food. We buy milk from a local
dairy that graze their cows on the fields next to our house. They sell direct to homes and to local shops and restaurants at around £1.10 per pint. When Sainsbury’s is charging £1.20 for four pints (and paying their farmers much less) you can see why big farms are under pressure to intensively farm.

But the vast majority won't pay nearly a fiver for four lines of milk in a supermarket, so on we go.

The beer thing you can do OP is to make ethical choices about where you buy dairy and eggs. Don't forget chicken farming and egg production can be diabolically bad as well when it's done on a big scale.

Sorry - "best" thing you can do! And four pints not lines... I should spell check more!

They want to get milked because its very painful having full udders; like when you're breastfeeding and you need the release. They don't enjoy having their babies forcibly removed. They cry for days. They become docile over time because they are "broken". It's horrific.

To answer a few questions
My ethical decisions around food come from animal welfare not environment (right or wrong)
I'm pescitarian but don't eat chicken. I do eat eggs but from a small holder I know so no issues with them.
My change in dairy is to oat milk and plant butter. But I still eat cheese.

My question is because I find it very hard to research as its such an emotive subject, its very hard to find a balance

To add, I would eat chicken if I was sure of the welfare behind it. I won't eat supermarket chicken

I'm sure it is difficult for an individual human to compell a cow to do something she doesn't want to do. I was referring to the systemic exploitation and breeding purely to take the products of the cow's bodies (and their actual bodies), for example to make a cheeseburger. The cow doesn't/can't consent to that. No being enjoys being confined and slaughtered, obviously. I wasnt referring to them being a bit arsey about going through a gate or whatever! Would have thought that was obvious, but 🤷‍♀️

They will want to be milked won't they because they are producing milk that would normally be for their calves, so therefore will become uncomfortable if the milk is not removed somehow. Like when a breastfeeding woman is away from her child and has to pump to relieve the pressure.

My mum studied agriculture at university and my father a farm vet. This is true.

I remember my dad trying to “cheer me up” when I was younger saying that the dairy cows are often bred with beef cattle so that some of the male calves don’t have to be shot at birth and instead get to live a whole year or two before being killed for beef… it is fair to say this didn’t cheer me up!

I went vegetarian at 9 and been vegan for six years now. I recommend oat milk :)

To be fair an increasing number of farms use robot milkers now, where the cow chooses when to be milked.
Even in traditional parlour systems you couldn't get a set of teats on a cow who didn't want them.
I think that approximates to consent.

I grew up on farms and studied agriculture at college, both my parents still work in the dairy industry and have done all their lives. I've worked on several dairy farms as a teenager. I left my college course without completing it at 18 because I could no longer ignore the horrendous cruelty involved with animal agriculture. Calves are routinely taken away from their mothers at 24 hours old and the mothers will call for them, distressed. The calves will suckle your fingers desperate for some comfort. Cows are often lame, often fall and have to be hoisted back to their feet or shot if they can no longer stand. Of course they're keen to get into the milking parlour - it's their routine they have been indoctrinated into and their udders become painful and swollen without regular milking. This is because they have been bred to be this way.

It's such an appalling and cruel industry. I've been vegan 12 years and lost most of my childhood farming friends because of it but there is no way I can continue to consciously support these industries with my dietary choices.

You know how cheese is made right?

That’s a very simplistic take on dairy farming. What about all of the resources used to produce the feed for the dairy cows? What about the huge amount of land used to rear dairy cows that would naturally be woodland? And, most of all, what about the huge amount of green house gases produced by a dairy cow, specifically methane which is the single worst greenhouse gas?

So you've read what's on the picture here and your priority is using less water instead of what these cows go through? Wow

Why do you still eat cheese, OP?

The part that got me in the graphic is about "natural" lifespan: dairy cows are very far removed from their wild ancestors. Natural would mean constant worry about predators, dying of minor infections or injuries, struggling to get enough food in winter. Natural would mean no vaccinations or shelter and living with lots of parasites on their bodies. I don't know what the average lifespan would be in feral cattle without human intervention.

Also about milk... the calves typically get pasteurised whole milk from their same farm, or powdered-reconstituted milk. Calves should also get 2-6 litres of colostrum in first 4-24 hours after birth. Probably will be bank/pooled & pasteurised colostrum & milk from all the suitable dams.

The dams are powerful milk machines & don't mind (suffer from) producing milk while being pregnant. They get 6-8 weeks off milking before birth of next calf.

This is mainly wrong.
Milking a cow isn’t painful and doesn’t make them bleed (where on earth have you seen this?).
In the UK cows are not routinely given antibiotics (or hormones as is commonly said). If they are ill they are treated, but in general decent farmers using high welfare methods have low levels of illness.
I live in a very rural area where most cows (dairy or beef) are outside. Over winter dairy cows are kept in, but are fed a high quality diet and usually have a comfortable existence and enrichments to keep them happy.
I haven’t worked anywhere where cows are culled after 5 years, that doesn’t sound realistic for UK farming at all. It was common for cows to reach 10+ if not older.
Contrary to popular opinion, farmers tend to genuinely like their animals and want them to be happy and comfortable.

Yes farming has some unpalatable practices, and any one of us is free to make our own decisions about what we eat and drink, but let’s not lie to make our points.

I have some limited and maybe outdated insight into dairy farming , but damn sure no dairy farmer has the time for Mumsnet!
The graph to me would make any British dairy farmer bust within a week- I really worry that uk people read a lot of US based stuff . From my experience a British dairy farmer couldn't carry on like that. At every stage of that graphic they would go bust.
Dairy farms exist because their land isn't appropriate for crops but will sit on a good bit of privately owned water table ( so the idea that the cows are drinking " tap" water is lolz). If they didn't have free water - bust
Still born calves go to dog meat/ hunt packs
Male calves that live will go to veal and or depending on bread - live to an age and be just crappy beef, or decent.
Calves always suckle for a while- or they die. Simple.
Antibiotics on MY farm were given to heffers with problems and milk was kept out of the food chain. This was mega expensive to do- no one can afford hormones/ growth stuff , all the expensive stuff people think non organic put in their cows. Organic farms HAVE to give medicine to poorly cows. Fact.
Most farms are in a cooperative and from memory milk is tested daily- the better treated the herd the better the milk the more money they got for it.
The herd I lived with were 150 I think and all were named . This was the same for every herd in the county . We had many Maisy 1,2,,3,4 and daisy 1,2,3,4. They lived to be old and loved.
If they stopped being able to produce milk/ have calves- yes they were culled .
Farming is loving and brutal . We all have to make peace with it, or not use the produce from it and change the world. I am always happy to be proven wrong and really don't want a mn slanging match .