Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Chat

Join the discussion and chat with other Mumsnetters about everyday life, relationships and parenting.

Original poster

The death penalty is unpopular on here but ...TW child abuse

124 replies

Tamarindtree · 19/01/2023 13:31

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11652805/Couple-face-jail-torturing-children-starving-pushing-boiling-showers.html

Lengthy sentences don’t cut it for me. Whilst in prison they can eat, laugh, sing, feel warm and have medical and dental care etc as well as relive and relish in their minds their evilness towards the children.

The children have a lifetime of healing.

OP posts:
RustBuck · 19/01/2023 15:41

I totally understand that. But we're talking hypothetically on this thread. The thread's about the death penalty which will never, ever be brought back in the UK. That doesn't mean we can't talk and share our perspectives on it.

Of course its emotional, we're talking about how people should be treated when they've murdered people, raped women, tortured children. You can't remove the emotion from that. No justice system ever can. Or should.

In my 'ideal scenario', these types of people would have next to zero contact with prison staff so wouldn't have the opportunity for assault.

I don't care at all about the family or friends of people who murder people, rape women, and torture children. I understand that losing their relative to a hugely punitive prison system (like I'm proposing) is hurtful. But that was the decision that their relative made. Tough.

Brefugee · 19/01/2023 15:46

a hypothetical situation? and the hypothetical miscarriage of justice?

The thread's about the death penalty which will never, ever be brought back in the UK

the country is lurching to the right with every election. It is absolutely not a definite, given the UK's biggest role model still has the death penalty in plenty of states. It would require leaving the ECHR, but the government doesn't seem to have an issue with that.

So maybe not as hypothetical as you think.

And again: what about miscarriages of justice?

IDontCareMatthew · 19/01/2023 15:48

How on earth could you have next to no contact with prison staff??

How would that work? You expect staff to watch someone treated like that? How do you think that would work? What about our mental health?What about other prisoners....they would make life even harder for staff if they knew what was happening

Oh, and what about the independent monitoring board? How would we square it with them?

SirenSays · 19/01/2023 15:51

I'd never support the death penalty. How would you even execute these people? The lethal injection is literally barbaric torture. No civilised society should be OK with that.

EileenAdler · 19/01/2023 15:54

Brefugee · 19/01/2023 15:40

I don’t need any bodies help or my brain cells agitating, certainly not by a patronising self righteous smatchet like you.

Fair enough.

You haven't addressed miscarriages of justice here. To be fair not many others have.

So, a question to the "they should be tortured" or "they should be in a cell with a hole for a toilet and slop twice a day"

What do you do about miscarriages of justice? What happens when the truth comes out and someone you have tortured (and that cell is a torture instrument) or worse, executed, what then?

Depends what your definition of a “ miscarriage of justice” is, doesn’t it ?. Releasing a murderer to commit another murder or how about murderers only serving 8 years or a multiple murderer of young women walking free to live at a secret address with a change of name. And nobody would knowingly execute the wrong person in the same way 29 patients were given a fatal dose of the incorrect medication by the NHS last year. I guess the same sort of apology would be issued.

DesertIslandCondiment · 19/01/2023 15:58

Lockheart · 19/01/2023 13:49

Lengthy sentences don’t cut it for me.

It's not up to you though, so this is irrelevant.

OP is allowed to have an opinion.

OP probably knows they aren't going to bring it back, especially in their lifetime.

I get that there are miscarriages of justice and this is why it can't be brought back.

A PP said:
When people say they are in favour of the death penalty, it is not them who will need to carry out the executions. Someone else will carry that on their conscience.

I actually think there are many people who would do the execution themselves if someone harmed a loved one. This is not going to be allowed to happen though either.

I just hope the prisons are as strict as the two prison workers said.

AffIt · 19/01/2023 15:59

@RustBuck

I don't care at all about the family or friends of people who murder people, rape women, and torture children.

Really?

What do you think this says about you?

I will never, ever condone or support state-sanctioned murder.

AffIt · 19/01/2023 16:02

@DesertIslandCondiment

I actually think there are many people who would do the execution themselves if someone harmed a loved one

No, I don't think they would, because the act of taking another living being's life is so against most people's base ethics that I doubt it would be possible for most.

If you handed somebody a sword, or a gun, or a syringe or whatever, I genuinely doubt that most normal people would be able to do it, when push comes to shove.

DesertIslandCondiment · 19/01/2023 16:03

AffIt · 19/01/2023 16:02

@DesertIslandCondiment

I actually think there are many people who would do the execution themselves if someone harmed a loved one

No, I don't think they would, because the act of taking another living being's life is so against most people's base ethics that I doubt it would be possible for most.

If you handed somebody a sword, or a gun, or a syringe or whatever, I genuinely doubt that most normal people would be able to do it, when push comes to shove.

I think they would. Especially if it was their child they had murdered.

ComtesseDeSpair · 19/01/2023 16:03

I actually think there are many people who would do the execution themselves if someone harmed a loved one.

Interestingly, in countries which have the death penalty and whose justice systems also allow the victim or their family to offer clemency, the growing trend is for the victim or family to do so - because broadly, when it comes to essentially acting as executioner, many people actually can’t take on that duty.

DesertIslandCondiment · 19/01/2023 16:05

AffIt · 19/01/2023 16:02

@DesertIslandCondiment

I actually think there are many people who would do the execution themselves if someone harmed a loved one

No, I don't think they would, because the act of taking another living being's life is so against most people's base ethics that I doubt it would be possible for most.

If you handed somebody a sword, or a gun, or a syringe or whatever, I genuinely doubt that most normal people would be able to do it, when push comes to shove.

How do you think Soldiers kill? They are killing innocent people. Yes, many need a lot of counselling after. Killing a non innocent person, I think many would be OK with that.

MissingMoominMamma · 19/01/2023 16:05

I can see the benefit of freeing society of the burden of people who have done something so evil.

However, to achieve that, a whole host of people become murderers, because a death penalty is pre-mediated. Everyone involved in that process becomes guilty.

pointythings · 19/01/2023 16:07

And nobody would knowingly execute the wrong person in the same way 29 patients were given a fatal dose of the incorrect medication by the NHS last year.

I refer you back to the case of Stefan Kiszko, who would certainly have been executed had the UK had the death penalty at the time. And he was innocent. You cannot guarantee that no innocent people will ever be executed. How many executions of innocent people is too many for you? For me that number stands at anything that is greater than zero.

DesertIslandCondiment · 19/01/2023 16:08

ComtesseDeSpair · 19/01/2023 16:03

I actually think there are many people who would do the execution themselves if someone harmed a loved one.

Interestingly, in countries which have the death penalty and whose justice systems also allow the victim or their family to offer clemency, the growing trend is for the victim or family to do so - because broadly, when it comes to essentially acting as executioner, many people actually can’t take on that duty.

I understand that. I've read where victims families forgive the murderer.

Not all humans are the same though.

NotAnotherBathBomb · 19/01/2023 16:11

BloodAndFire · 19/01/2023 15:33

It deliberately doesn't say, to avoid identifying the children. For the same reason it would be wrong to speculate about it here.

Show quote history

Well I noticed they didn’t mention it, but all it’s made me wonder is if they were foster parents. News reports have mentioned relationships to abused children before. It’s just than so many stories of abuse against children seem to involve at least one adult that isn’t related to the them, and it’s a problem.

Mommabear20 · 19/01/2023 16:13

All the death penalty causes is more grief. Grief of the family of the person that's put to death. Whatever they've done, they're still someone's child, and they will suffer that lose through no fault of their own. And the amount of innocent people that have been killed and later they've been proved innocent is astonishing!

Brefugee · 19/01/2023 16:14

Depends what your definition of a “ miscarriage of justice” is, doesn’t it ?. Releasing a murderer to commit another murder or how about murderers only serving 8 years or a multiple murderer of young women walking free to live at a secret address with a change of name.

not examples of miscarriage of justice. Arguably (and I'd probably agree) the justice system doesn't handle sentencing properly. But that's not the discussion here.
(FWIW: I would be more keen on longer sentences, and more work on rehabilitation and things like social restitution)

IDontCareMatthew · 19/01/2023 16:16

Prisons are very understaffed anyway, I think even more people would leave. The job is difficult enough

I love my job but don't think I could continue if I had to work with a death row scenario. I would probably leave the service

Our prison is very very old and hangings took place there, we have some interesting original 'features' let's say! Looking at it now I wonder if we would need to allocate a parking space for the executioner. Would they want their own office? I can't see how it would work. Would I make him/her a cup of tea? Where would the execution actually take place? Which officers will be bringing them up out of cells to be executed? How will their mental health fare when they get home from work? How will they manage their feelings about dragging a man to his death?So many questions!

Emmamoo89 · 19/01/2023 16:16

I don't agree with the death penalty

OriGanOver · 19/01/2023 16:18

If the death penalty worked we'd have it. It doesn't work, if it did no one would be on death row in America!

gogohmm · 19/01/2023 16:18

It's never right to have the death penalty but I think police should be using lethal force during incidents like terrorism

lieselotte · 19/01/2023 16:22

ByeByeLouisByeByeKlaus · 19/01/2023 13:42

I read about this earlier, sickening isn’t it? 😞 Stuff like this provokes raw emotion in us and it makes us - me, anyway - feel impotent against this kind of evil.

Personally, I’m against the death penalty. But it’s not because I’m especially interested in the wellbeing of individuals like this, it’s more that I can’t support a system that gives the power to take a life.

We’ve seen so many times that the justice system is imperfect, mistakes are made and prejudices exist - even one mistaken death penalty is too much. I hope that makes sense.

Exactly this.

However, I'd probably make an exception for the Moors Murderers, Robert Black and Wayne Couzens.

EileenAdler · 19/01/2023 16:24

pointythings · 19/01/2023 16:07

And nobody would knowingly execute the wrong person in the same way 29 patients were given a fatal dose of the incorrect medication by the NHS last year.

I refer you back to the case of Stefan Kiszko, who would certainly have been executed had the UK had the death penalty at the time. And he was innocent. You cannot guarantee that no innocent people will ever be executed. How many executions of innocent people is too many for you? For me that number stands at anything that is greater than zero.

The burden of proof would have to be overwhelming to hang a man and in that case I think it highly likely he would have been on the grounds of his learning difficulties. Although I concede that I am not an expert.

Maybe if we are not going to reinstate the death penalty , as we can now do since left the EU, then perhaps murderers should get a full life sentence. And if that causes problems with prison staff, then they spend it in solitary confinement. I should think that will concentrate the mind of any convict. All I know is we don’t have a justice system, just a legal framework.

maddiemookins16mum · 19/01/2023 16:24

The ‘problem’ with the death penalty is that someone has to carry it out, be that by lethal injection or whatever.

EileenAdler · 19/01/2023 16:28

maddiemookins16mum · 19/01/2023 16:24

The ‘problem’ with the death penalty is that someone has to carry it out, be that by lethal injection or whatever.

Didn’t seem to bother Pierrepoint that much. He executed 400-600 criminals over 25 years.