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Original poster

Yet another person killed from a dog attack.. what is going on

877 replies

icelolly12 · 13/01/2023 08:32

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-surrey-64254413

Something needs to be done...reports of dog neglect taken more seriously, harsher prison sentences... any other ideas?

Awful, awful way to die, and makes me think twice about passing dogs off lead on walks.

OP posts:
Emotionalsupportviper · 24/01/2023 19:35

Soothsayer1 · 24/01/2023 18:21

does that mean we should let them just crack on with it??
I think it would be helpful to publicly draw a very clear distinction between normal pet dogs and these weaponised canine predators

Show quote history

The big money in these dogs is the breeding.

The breeders get round current licensing legislation by "co-owning" dogs - ie the give the bitch to someone (no charge) and then just breed from her using their own stud dogs . This means they are no longer "breeders" falling under the licensing rules. The bitch's owner gets 50% - which of a litter of (say) 5 pups at £3,000 - £5,000 each, is a tidy sum.

Some of the male dog owners don't even bother co-owning bitches - they just have umpteen dogs and they sell the semen. One guy boasted he averaged £100,000 a MONTH doing this. It is known that it is a money-laundering scheme for many criminals - but they STILL haven't found a way to plug the loopholes.

Do you think a licence is going to make a dent in this sort of industrial grade breeding? The current laws aren't even being enforced (eg ear cropping), so what makes you think a dog licence would?

I'm not usually in favour banning breeds, but I really think that the American bulldogs, like pit bull types, should be banned. For the sake of the animals themselves and for the rest of society. They are incredibly dangerous. However how it would be policed/ enforced, I really don't know. Like guns and those horrific "hunting" knives so many young boys seem to carry, once these are prevalent in the community they are very difficult to eradicate.

Soothsayer1 · 24/01/2023 19:39

pigsDOfly · 24/01/2023 19:21

Exactly why muzzles, leads, and licences wouldn't work. The majority of dog attacks happen in the home.

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I disagree.
Muzzles, leads, and licences send a clear message that owning a dog is a serious undertaking and that dogs can cause significant harm to humans, this would filter through to how dogs are managed in the home environment.

Soothsayer1 · 24/01/2023 19:42

I'm not usually in favour banning breeds, but I really think that the American bulldogs, like pit bull types, should be banned. For the sake of the animals themselves and for the rest of society. They are incredibly dangerous. However how it would be policed/ enforced, I really don't know. Like guns and those horrific "hunting" knives so many young boys seem to carry, once these are prevalent in the community they are very difficult to eradicate

I don't disagree with you, but at the same time it's not helpful to shoot down any suggestions for controlling dog ownership.

XenoBitch · 24/01/2023 19:45

Soothsayer1 · 24/01/2023 19:39

I disagree.
Muzzles, leads, and licences send a clear message that owning a dog is a serious undertaking and that dogs can cause significant harm to humans, this would filter through to how dogs are managed in the home environment.

Show quote history

Who would bother to train their dog if they had to be on lead with a muzzle in public at all times?

Emotionalsupportviper · 01/02/2023 23:18

Another young child (4) has been killed by the "family dog" today.

Yet another family which has got themselves an ADULT dog, of a large, powerful breed (American bulldog) and let the frickin' animal play with a small child in the garden.

I don't know if the parents were there, too, but these are hugely powerful animals and the dog obviously turned on her.

I am on TEAM DOG every step of the way - but FFS! When you have no idea of the provenance of an animal, don't know its temperament, or how it has been treated, or what will provoke it, why on earth would you choose that animal as a family "pet"? You just don't!

We've always had multiple dogs - at one time we had 8 in the house (DD had a dane and a staffie, we had 6 terriers). We have never had fewer than three, all the time the kids were little - we NEVER left any of them alone with a baby/ small child, and these were dogs we'd had from puppies. We knew their temperament and that they were trustworthy, but you never know if a child will accidentally hurt a dog and the dog will respond, or if a child will make a noise that provokes an attack because it sounds like a wounded prey animal.

My heart aches for that poor baby and for her parents but in the name of God, if you want a dog - get a labrador or a spaniel or a retriever - and get a young one, and make sure you know exactly where it's come from.

Don't ever let an unknown animal near your children. (And be cautious letting them b=near yourself, for that matter).

freckles20 · 01/02/2023 23:43

Emotionalsupportviper · 01/02/2023 23:18

Another young child (4) has been killed by the "family dog" today.

Yet another family which has got themselves an ADULT dog, of a large, powerful breed (American bulldog) and let the frickin' animal play with a small child in the garden.

I don't know if the parents were there, too, but these are hugely powerful animals and the dog obviously turned on her.

I am on TEAM DOG every step of the way - but FFS! When you have no idea of the provenance of an animal, don't know its temperament, or how it has been treated, or what will provoke it, why on earth would you choose that animal as a family "pet"? You just don't!

We've always had multiple dogs - at one time we had 8 in the house (DD had a dane and a staffie, we had 6 terriers). We have never had fewer than three, all the time the kids were little - we NEVER left any of them alone with a baby/ small child, and these were dogs we'd had from puppies. We knew their temperament and that they were trustworthy, but you never know if a child will accidentally hurt a dog and the dog will respond, or if a child will make a noise that provokes an attack because it sounds like a wounded prey animal.

My heart aches for that poor baby and for her parents but in the name of God, if you want a dog - get a labrador or a spaniel or a retriever - and get a young one, and make sure you know exactly where it's come from.

Don't ever let an unknown animal near your children. (And be cautious letting them b=near yourself, for that matter).

Has the breed been confirmed? I haven't been able to find this anywhere 'official' .

There is understandably so much speculation around these tragic incidents but it seems hard to find out what actually happened. I appreciate that it is important that details are only shared appropriately in order to prevent additional upset to the grieving family. Plus it must take considerable time to work out what happened.

However, if lessons are to be learned and speculation separated from fact it feels important that some information is eventually shared with the public as and when appropriate.

SinnerBoy · 01/02/2023 23:56

I think it was the Independent, which confirmed that the girl was 4 and that it was an American Bully.

Emotionalsupportviper · 02/02/2023 07:05

freckles20 · 01/02/2023 23:43

Has the breed been confirmed? I haven't been able to find this anywhere 'official' .

There is understandably so much speculation around these tragic incidents but it seems hard to find out what actually happened. I appreciate that it is important that details are only shared appropriately in order to prevent additional upset to the grieving family. Plus it must take considerable time to work out what happened.

However, if lessons are to be learned and speculation separated from fact it feels important that some information is eventually shared with the public as and when appropriate.

Show quote history

Plus it must take considerable time to work out what happened.

I agree - the parents must be in a terrible state - maybe even under sedation at the moment.

I just can't understand the attraction of these dogs. Is it for protection, perhaps? I don't know what the area is like where they live, but I imagine that if you feel under threat from drugs dealers/ thugs etc you might be tempted to get an animal like this to warn them off, but obviously I don't know.

Floofyduffypuddy · 02/02/2023 07:18

We don't know who owned the dog for all we know it was visiting with someone.

It's beyond shocking.

Guiltycat · 02/02/2023 07:21

My sympathy for the parents in these situations has swiftly run out.

Parents who put their child in harms way deliberately through sheer stupidity shouldn’t just be let off with a ‘oh but imagine how THEY are feeling’.

Why? It’s the poor baby who has been ripped to bits I cry over. We don’t put the parents feelings over the righteous anger that this was completely preventable for any other situation.

A parent who drinks, drives and kills their own child in an accident.

A parent who doesn’t bother to put their child in a car set/seatbelt.

A parent who chooses to allow a known dangerous adult into the house with a child.

A parent whose child is killed because they left drugs on the side where they can reach.

Any owner/parent who gets a child (or anyone else) killed by predictably following the pattern that has got so many children killed SHOULD be prosecuted in my opinion.

Floofyduffypuddy · 02/02/2023 07:22

Another neighbor said she cant relax in a local park because of huge dogs. She said people say "it's ok he's the family pet" but you wouldn't trust them.so maybe there is a lot of big dogs.

My brain can't compute on what planet anyone would get an adult dog with a small child it would consider as prey and what sort of rescue would allow it to go

Dogsafety123 · 02/02/2023 08:19

Floofyduffypuddy · 02/02/2023 07:22

Another neighbor said she cant relax in a local park because of huge dogs. She said people say "it's ok he's the family pet" but you wouldn't trust them.so maybe there is a lot of big dogs.

My brain can't compute on what planet anyone would get an adult dog with a small child it would consider as prey and what sort of rescue would allow it to go

Unfortunately, that’s the mindset. There are obviously criminals and thugs with dangerous dogs, but the sad thing is that it’s the “wouldn't hurt a fly, he’s a big softie, amazing with kids” large, very powerful breeds that are doing the killing. Dog bite injuries (non fatal) have a different pattern of course, but again it’s the family pets.

freckles20 · 02/02/2023 08:30

SinnerBoy · 01/02/2023 23:56

I think it was the Independent, which confirmed that the girl was 4 and that it was an American Bully.

I've had a look and the most recent article from The Independent, plus the previous 3 all state that the breed of the dog hasn't been released.

So I think that in truth the breed is as yet unknown.

I feel it is important to try to stick to facts. I'm not suggesting that American Bulldogs (which people are assuming is the breed involved) aren't a breed which needs to be carefully considered, and bring risks.

However, if lessons are to be learned it is important that the correct facts and circumstances are established first.

drpet49 · 02/02/2023 08:38

Guiltycat · 02/02/2023 07:21

My sympathy for the parents in these situations has swiftly run out.

Parents who put their child in harms way deliberately through sheer stupidity shouldn’t just be let off with a ‘oh but imagine how THEY are feeling’.

Why? It’s the poor baby who has been ripped to bits I cry over. We don’t put the parents feelings over the righteous anger that this was completely preventable for any other situation.

A parent who drinks, drives and kills their own child in an accident.

A parent who doesn’t bother to put their child in a car set/seatbelt.

A parent who chooses to allow a known dangerous adult into the house with a child.

A parent whose child is killed because they left drugs on the side where they can reach.

Any owner/parent who gets a child (or anyone else) killed by predictably following the pattern that has got so many children killed SHOULD be prosecuted in my opinion.

Completely agree with this.

Floofyduffypuddy · 02/02/2023 08:44

Fact: the larger the dogs jaw and muscle mass generally,the more damage it can do.

freckles20 · 02/02/2023 08:50

Floofyduffypuddy · 02/02/2023 08:44

Fact: the larger the dogs jaw and muscle mass generally,the more damage it can do.

No one is disputing that.

But powerful dogs are not the only issue that we have wrt reactive dogs and people being injured or even tragically killed.

It is important that all the varied issues are identified and addressed as opposed to lumping the cause of all attacks onto particular breeds.

We are in danger of thinking that the way to address this problem is to restrict / ban / license certain types of dogs. There is definitely a need to consider this, but it's not the only thing that needs to be considered.

dawngreen · 02/02/2023 08:56

I see 3 issues here - One we have the back street breeders who don't care about the dogs they just want the cash. The end result been ill dogs that have left their mother too early , and over crowded rescues.

Two - the look how hard we are crowd with fighting breeds. They just laugh if a dog fight starts. And its not the breeds its the scum training them like that.

The third- People that get dogs then don't keep up with the training, and let their kids climb all over them while they are eating. When I was 7 yrs old I went to dog training classes, and many people did. A lot of ppl these days get dogs but I never see them training them, and socialising them. Walking looking at your mobile while the dog gets dragged along the hedge is not training.

dawngreen · 02/02/2023 09:00

Forgot to say it takes a dog in a new environment up to a year to settle in.

freckles20 · 02/02/2023 09:01

dawngreen · 02/02/2023 08:56

I see 3 issues here - One we have the back street breeders who don't care about the dogs they just want the cash. The end result been ill dogs that have left their mother too early , and over crowded rescues.

Two - the look how hard we are crowd with fighting breeds. They just laugh if a dog fight starts. And its not the breeds its the scum training them like that.

The third- People that get dogs then don't keep up with the training, and let their kids climb all over them while they are eating. When I was 7 yrs old I went to dog training classes, and many people did. A lot of ppl these days get dogs but I never see them training them, and socialising them. Walking looking at your mobile while the dog gets dragged along the hedge is not training.

You may well be right but really we need more information about these attacks in order to make an informed statement about the issues involved and what needs to be done.

Obviously in this case it is too early to have any details or facts and it also would be inappropriate so soon after this tragedy to release them. Which is why I wish people wouldn't jump to conclusions.

Dogsafety123 · 02/02/2023 09:02

freckles20 · 02/02/2023 09:01

You may well be right but really we need more information about these attacks in order to make an informed statement about the issues involved and what needs to be done.

Obviously in this case it is too early to have any details or facts and it also would be inappropriate so soon after this tragedy to release them. Which is why I wish people wouldn't jump to conclusions.

Show quote history

Ok. But we can look at the deaths that have gone before and draw conclusions from them.

Emotionalsupportviper · 02/02/2023 09:07

Floofyduffypuddy · 02/02/2023 07:18

We don't know who owned the dog for all we know it was visiting with someone.

It's beyond shocking.

Various reports said it was the family dog, and they'd had it about 6-8 weeks.

Long enough to think it was safe with children, I suppose.

Neighbours also said that they had never seen the dog outside the garden, which implies it wasn't walked - it will have been climbing the walls.

My brain can't compute on what planet anyone would get an adult dog with a small child it would consider as prey and what sort of rescue would allow it to go

They've either lied through their teeth to a rescue, or (more likely) bought it off some website. Dog might have been through umpteen owners, getting more and more unsettled and dangerous every time.

I've had a look and the most recent article from The Independent, plus the previous 3 all state that the breed of the dog hasn't been released.

It was Mail Online where I saw it reported as an American bulldog.

We are in danger of thinking that the way to address this problem is to restrict / ban / license certain types of dogs. There is definitely a need to consider this, but it's not the only thing that needs to be considered.

Absolutely! But I have no idea how this can be tackled - police know it's a problem on the streets, they know it's very much linked to organised crime/ money laundering - they know this, but are unable to crack down on it. We need much stricter legislation on breeding and selling ALL dogs. The problem is, because dogs are considered "property" legally, a seller can charge whatever anyone is prepared to pay, so they can't control what sums of money change hands. This is an easy way to launder money.

And of course, thugs get these dogs and weaponise them - not sure how this can ever be stopped.

Floofyduffypuddy · 02/02/2023 09:07

All the papers are releasing details as they come. It's all over the media and MN is a chat forum talking about event's of the day. So I can't understand your spamming this board with comments as if we are in a court of law?

Agree with muzzles and licencing. Also I'm sure in new York? I saw special seperate area's where dogs could be let off the lead i'e not in parks.

Floofyduffypuddy · 02/02/2023 09:10

@Emotionalsupportviper

People wouldn't necessarily see any dog being taken for a walk though.

It may have had amazing excersise.
However I'm wondering if it wasn't actually a family members dog and was even visiting .
I also don't agree that 8 weeks is long enough to trust an adult dog with hunting instinct.

Emotionalsupportviper · 02/02/2023 09:16

I also don't agree that 8 weeks is long enough to trust an adult dog with hunting instinct.

8 weeks is nowhere near enough time @Floofyduffypuddy . I was just thinking that someone who didn't know much about dogs might think - "Oh, it's been great with the kids since we got it. They'll be okay".

I honestly wouldn't leave even the sweetest natured dog, large or small, alone with a young child. Children can hurt animals without intending to and dogs can respond instinctively.

We have had staffies in the past, and they are wonderful dogs - you really can't go past a well-bred staffie as a house pet, but I would never have another. Too many people are randomly breeding them. They are a powerful dog and I wouldn't want the responsibility.

Floofyduffypuddy · 02/02/2023 09:18

Agree and all the stuff about not getting into a dog's face, well children are at dog face level