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Director of Lived Experience role at NHS on £115K

239 replies

ImJustMadAboutSaffron · 16/12/2022 15:27

www.healthjobsuk.com/job/UK/Staffordshire/Stafford/Midlands_Partnership_NHS_Foundation_Trust/Director/Director-v4828381

What the absolute hell? Words fail me.

OP posts:
Lapland123 · 16/12/2022 16:06

Think it’s definitely written with someone in mind.
The salary is the same as that if a hospital consultant to 20 years experience as a consultant ( so all med school, Foundation years, core training, higher specialty training years are in addition to the 20)

what an absolute farce.

There are plenty of non - patient facing staff in cushy roles where they go to meetings and deliver nothing.

all this should be spent on staff who deliver care to actual patients

disgraceful misuse of taxpayers money

lipstickwoman · 16/12/2022 16:08

@SnoringSnorlax speaking as a retired senior nurse (in a senior managers role) with a large amount of friends still in clinical roles I think it's fair to say the nhs is very overcrapped and very lacking in common sense.

It certainly needs a cull of totally pointless roles and money redirected to healthcare instead of box ticking.

Thank god I could retire because the daily bullshit is exhausting

JennyForeigner · 16/12/2022 16:09

Cattenberg · 16/12/2022 15:39

Yes, we need to know this in order to work out what a “lived experience workforce”.

Experience of a life altering health condition, with significant use of secondary health services in which significant power imbalances have been experienced

My stay on an NHS postnatal ward immediately springs to mind.

Same. Something tells me that's probably not what they had in mind though.

Interested in this thread?

Then you might like threads about this subject:

Toddlerteaplease · 16/12/2022 16:10

Don't understand one word of that! Agree that it does sound like they have someone in mind.

SnoringSnorlax · 16/12/2022 16:13

I do agree it needs more common sense, I wasn't privvy to unnecessary roles, but there does seem a lack of appetite to make large changes of any kind.

pinneddownbytabbies · 16/12/2022 16:14

On the rare occasion I need to visit my local hospital, I am alway greeted by the sight of numerous people in smart suits striding importantly along the corridors, lanyards swinging, and clipboards at the ready. They outnumber the actual patient-facing staff by about 10 to 1.

There is something deeply wrong somewhere.

SinnerBoy · 16/12/2022 16:17

I've never seen anything like that at our local minor injury clinic, or the RVI.

EL0ISE · 16/12/2022 16:21

pursuedbyablackdog · 16/12/2022 15:40

Actually the way it's written makes me think they already have someone in mind...

That’s exactly what I was going to say.

EmpressoftheMundane · 16/12/2022 16:23

Is this what HR directors are now called?

It looks like a fake job created to funnel money away from the tax payer to an insiders crony.

I hope a journalist picks this up.

Corruption is expensive. We cannot afford this.

Mamansparkles · 16/12/2022 16:25

The idea of having someone at board level who has extensive 'lived experience' as a patient and can explain what the NHS is like from a patient perspective (ie a shitshow) so they can make changes to make the system work for patients is really good. I don't quite see how it commands that kind of salary though!

blacksax · 16/12/2022 16:25

Oh well, just about every menopausal woman who has had her awful symptoms ignored and minimised could apply for this role:

'They will have personal experience of life-altering health condition(s), with considerable use of secondary health services, in which they have experienced significant power imbalances'

There you go.

Bluevelvetsofa · 16/12/2022 16:28

If you replicate this amongst the NHS in general , how much money will be, is being spent on meaningless roles that are far removed from the nuts and bolts of caring for and treating people.

Too many chiefs and not enough Indians.

BirgetteNyborg · 16/12/2022 16:28

"Actually the way it's written makes me think they already have someone in mind"

Harry obv Grin

MrsTerryPratchett · 16/12/2022 16:29

I work with someone in a 'lived experience' role in homelessness. Not a director, no Masters degree and not paid like that.

The point for me is this: When we discuss housing, routes into it, ways to achieve zero homelessness etc. she is able to talk about how these things FEEL, why people won't engage, why things don't work, why things discriminate in a way that someone who hasn't experienced things cannot. It is genuinely valuable. Nothing about us without us, right?

I mean we know women, Black people, people with disabilities and so on have massively worse outcomes in healthcare. Wouldn't it be nice to know what to do to change that? And have someone at director level to make changes? Now I know it won't happen because when services are stretched as they are, anything coming down is seen as superfluous to survival level. But it should be part of the system.

Clymene · 16/12/2022 16:30

If you can't do the basics right because you haven't got the staff, you have no business employing all sorts of nice to have roles.

The NHS needs to provide a good standard of basic care before forking out £200k a year on fluff roles.

Sallycinnamum · 16/12/2022 16:30

My local NHS Trust has a comms team of 34 people!

I only know this as a recruiter called me last week asking if I was interested in a potential new role in the team.

When I started in comms decades ago you'd be lucky to get a team of 5 in the public sector so that's quite a jump.

catmum88 · 16/12/2022 16:30

EmpressoftheMundane · 16/12/2022 16:23

Is this what HR directors are now called?

It looks like a fake job created to funnel money away from the tax payer to an insiders crony.

I hope a journalist picks this up.

Corruption is expensive. We cannot afford this.

Why would it be anything to do with HR?! It is completely different.

Nanny0gg · 16/12/2022 16:33

ImJustMadAboutSaffron · 16/12/2022 15:27

I must be thick because I don't understand.

What does the job actually entail/mean?

lipstickwoman · 16/12/2022 16:34

MrsTerryPratchett · 16/12/2022 16:29

I work with someone in a 'lived experience' role in homelessness. Not a director, no Masters degree and not paid like that.

The point for me is this: When we discuss housing, routes into it, ways to achieve zero homelessness etc. she is able to talk about how these things FEEL, why people won't engage, why things don't work, why things discriminate in a way that someone who hasn't experienced things cannot. It is genuinely valuable. Nothing about us without us, right?

I mean we know women, Black people, people with disabilities and so on have massively worse outcomes in healthcare. Wouldn't it be nice to know what to do to change that? And have someone at director level to make changes? Now I know it won't happen because when services are stretched as they are, anything coming down is seen as superfluous to survival level. But it should be part of the system.

But we do need services functioning and ready so we can improve access with some hope of improving outcomes.

MichelleScarn · 16/12/2022 16:37

JennyForeigner · 16/12/2022 16:09

Same. Something tells me that's probably not what they had in mind though.

Same, absolutely agree they have someone in mind for the role...what a waste of time for the other applicants!

fairgame84 · 16/12/2022 16:44

EmpressoftheMundane · 16/12/2022 16:23

Is this what HR directors are now called?

It looks like a fake job created to funnel money away from the tax payer to an insiders crony.

I hope a journalist picks this up.

Corruption is expensive. We cannot afford this.

The DM have picked it up.

Odessafile · 16/12/2022 16:49

I was always a bit disbelieving that these jobs were actually a thing but this one takes the biscuit.
uk.indeed.com/m/viewjob?jk=b0a8702614c9ec10&from=serp
£56k + to help folk be their own selves 😮
uk.indeed.com/m/viewjob?jk=b600645c7d51f9c0&from=serp
For £48-56k you will be prepared to constructively challenge the status quo....
In return, you will be offered the opportunity to work within a supportive environment, within a team that understands having fun and enjoying work is important to building successful teams and services.
Wow having fun. Tell that to overworked staff on the wards. Twice my wage.

FurryDandelionSeekingMissile · 16/12/2022 16:54

I guess that a lot of the people being so fucking sneery about this don't understand what lived experience is in this context. The Trust that's advertising provides mental health and learning disability services as well as some physical and community stuff — it sounds like an odd collection of things it covers, but guess it would be included in a list of mental health trusts, even if it does do some other stuff.

Yes, it's jargony and doesn't make sense to anyone outside of the mental healthcare provision sector, but it doesn't need to. It's not written for those people. Lived experience has a particular meaning inside this sector (I don't know about learning disability or substance use or other healthcare sectors, my experience is in the mental healthcare area, but I suspect if they use the phrase it means a similar thing) — it's about listening to people with serious mental illness, taking them seriously, seeking out their opinions and experiences, involving them in decisions about the provision of services and in the delivery of those services, paying them for the work they do to share what they've learnt through having a mental illness and being a patient in services, and valuing the participation and contribution of those people.

Although I don't like the euphemistic way it's talked about, it's absolutely vital that this happens in mental health services more than almost anywhere else, because for centuries mentally ill people have been assumed to have nothing of value to share, and to have no place in delivering, guiding, or directing services. Whatever was done to them, whatever happened to them, no role in deciding any of that. Anything they complained about was just because they were mentally ill. Anything they said could just be discounted, whether allegations of abuse, suggestions for service provision, opinions or concerns about their own care, or how they would like to live their lives and what they would like to work towards.

Lived experience support roles pay people who have experienced serious mental illness to support others with serious mental illness. But there's more to the idea of permitting agency for psychiatric patients. My guess is that a lived experience director will be one of a small number of top positions, in the group of people who organise the Trust at a high level, and will be responsible not only for heading up those staff who are in lived experience roles, but for all kinds of things to do with patient groups, advocacy groups, Recovery College stuff, staff who have experienced mental illness but aren't in explicit lived experience roles, creating space to be heard for those patients who tend to be even more unheard than other mentally ill people, liaising between people, whatever it is that directors within services do, but with a remit of keeping this perspective at the forefront of things.

The advert is all written in this wafty euphemistic way, which I don't like, and the language does kind of invite mocking (and I've seen lots of people on Twitter who I previously respected mocking it and linking it to identity politics and DEI stuff), but mocking the existence of the role itself just feels to me like a kick in the teeth to people like me, with decades of serious mental illness and terrible experiences in mental health services behind me. Big organisations need competent high-level executives to function, mental health services need to have someone among those officers who is responsible for making sure mentally ill people don't continue to be abused and their agency disregarded by services, and in order to get someone competent, you need to pay a vaguely competitive salary.

EL0ISE · 16/12/2022 16:58

NuttyinNotts · 16/12/2022 15:42

So is it the salary of NHS directors in general that you have an issue with? Because I think it's quite telling that it's only the director post that will be held by a disabled person that has it's salary being criticised.

This is the first role of its kind. Most NHS lived experience roles are band 3, with some being up to a band 5. There is a strong evidence base behind this kind of work and it is increasingly used within the NHS.

I think it’s very unlikely that this job will go to someone with a disability that seriously impacts their life. I’m pretty sure it’s a whole other kind of lived experience that they are looking for.

pursuedbyablackdog · 16/12/2022 17:01

SnoringSnorlax how many back office staff are on £115K though?
I am a clinician. If they want the answers to their questions how about asking the patients and clinicians?
Here's the thing I work in therapies. Evidence based practice tells us the best outcomes for patients are high intensity therapy programs. The gold standard in my field would be 4/5 days a week (with rehab tasks carried out by the patient both after clinician led therapy and on non therapy days) for 4/6 weeks. How much of this am I able to provide? 1 or at the most 2 sessions of therapy followed by discharge. Totally ineffective! Do I rant talk to my manager about this? Of course I do, and the answer? "Sorry pursued but as you know there just isn't the funding and our waiting lists are constantly breaching guidelines, you'll just have to find away to worker harder and smarter".
Do you realise £115k would pay for 3 band 6 therapists? Do you know if I could work effectively I could make a real difference for my patients? But here's the thing those who decide where funding goes really aren't interested in 'well-being' data, because it's difficult to quantify.
Someone up thread said if this person going into post can effect change then it's money well spent, my response is 'yes, but how do they effect change with no further money for staffing?'
Reality is this; £115k post holder, goes into post all enthusiastic, says yes we need more nurses, more drs, more therapists, more pharmacist/ dieticans/ ophthalmologists/ more discharge coordinators etc, only to be told "provide the evidence". So now our postholder devises a form for all clinicians to fill out, accept the clinicians are really busy seeing pts and put the form to one side, which quickly goes to the bottom of the pile of the to do list. Now the postholder is getting thoroughly peeved, as they can't move forward with their brand new changes so they send a snappy email to the clinicians, who grudgingly fill out the form thinking fucksake we do this constantly and it never makes a change, now I'm running late for my next pt oh this again. Form finally gets completed and returns.
The post holder looks at the returns but realises the data is qualitative not quantitive. "Ah well" says the post holder "I'll take it to the meeting". At the meeting the post holder says in earnest "look evidence of what we need now can we have these extra staff" and the VIP chief exec. Laugh and point out that qualitative data is not evidence based and therefore no, you can't have more staff, you need to redesign your measures...
And so on and so forth. Eventually the £115k post holder gives up, realises it's a load of codswallop, but quite likes the salary and breakfast meetings so, continues to sit in a job making no changes whatsoever. Chief exec are happy as don't need to ask for more money, and actually can now show the strategic health authority that they can save money by getting rid of £115k job. The strategic health authority are happy, because they now have another pot of money to advertise for a job they want to give their mate Norman, whose had a bit of rough time, and Norman is happy because he's about to get a new job in a comfy heated office with new carpeting!
Meanwhile £115k post holder who has been doing the post for five years, and can see the job is failing can request early retirement, with a nice tidy retirement sum, and is happy.
Meanwhile those of at the coalface feel more and more frustrated that nothing changes and our patients continue to suffer.