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Ukraine Invasion: Part 36

992 replies

MagicFox · 03/12/2022 15:42

Slava Ukraini πŸ‡ΊπŸ‡¦ Thanks as usual to all contributors and lurkers

OP posts:
Thread gallery
110
ScrollingLeaves · 15/12/2022 17:11

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime - Today 16:58

Thank you for your links regarding Poland’s surprising veto of the EU aid package for Ukraine.

I’ve read this one so far which explains why I think.
tsn.ua/en/ato/poland-blocked-billions-of-financial-support-for-ukraine-from-the-eu-2223745.html

Poland is still committed to support funding for Ukraine, however the micro financial aid package has become a hostage of internal politics, so to speak. Since the final package includes five different resolutions, it is enough to block only one of them, and the same fate will befall the rest four. The resolution opposed by Poland is not about macro financial aid for Ukrainian prolongation of the anti-Russian sanctions for another six months, which is now also blocked as part of the "package", but the introduction of the global minimum tax rate which may affect taxation of international companies.

Igotjelly · 15/12/2022 17:16

Not a mistake. I posted about it this morning. It’s to do with limits on corporate tax being introduced as part of the same package. It’s typical EU wrangling.

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 15/12/2022 17:25

well phew!

Given just how extremely supportive Poland has been of Ukraine, this seemed very odd indeed. There must be more in the background and that explanation has to be it, I guess

DesdamonasHandkerchief · 15/12/2022 18:15

A Twitter thread that looks at why Bakhmut is so contested:

Some have called the Russian efforts to take Bakhmut senseless, but I don't necessarily agree.

Why does Bakhmut matter and why are both Ukraine and Russia willing to throw so many men into the meatgrinder it has become?

As promised: why Bakhmut? A thread.

https://twitter.com/jjhelin/status/1603363429594431489?s=46&t=XxxF2U-27O1xx_xCydZ1vGw

ScrollingLeaves · 15/12/2022 18:25

DesdamonasHandkerchief Β· Today 18:15
A Twitter thread that looks at why Bakhmut is so contested:

Some have called the Russian efforts to take Bakhmut senseless, but I don't necessarily agree.

Why does Bakhmut matter and why are both Ukraine and Russia willing to throw so many men into the meatgrinder it has become?

*^As promised: why Bakhmut? A thread.
twitter.com/j_jhelin/status/1603363429594431489?s=46&t=XxxF2U-27O1x_xCydZ1vGw

Gosh, I almost wish I hadn’t read that: losing Bakhmut would matter a lot.

MissConductUS · 15/12/2022 19:11

The Economist published this article summarizing a series of interviews they conducted with President Zelensky and General Valery Zaluzhny. They expect a Russian offensive in the spring with the troops they are currently training.

A looming Russian offensive - Ukraine’s chiefs, in an unprecedented series of briefings, tell The Economist about the critical months that lie ahead

Zaluzhny is convinced that they will try to take Kyiv again. The article also offers some interesting commentary on the political implications of the current stalemate.

Zaluzhny is right to honor the threat. Ukraine has reported done a lot to fortify their northern border, and offense is much harder than defense, so I think it's long odds for the Russians, especially with troops who have never seen combat.

blueshoes · 15/12/2022 19:35

MissConductUS · 15/12/2022 19:11

The Economist published this article summarizing a series of interviews they conducted with President Zelensky and General Valery Zaluzhny. They expect a Russian offensive in the spring with the troops they are currently training.

A looming Russian offensive - Ukraine’s chiefs, in an unprecedented series of briefings, tell The Economist about the critical months that lie ahead

Zaluzhny is convinced that they will try to take Kyiv again. The article also offers some interesting commentary on the political implications of the current stalemate.

Zaluzhny is right to honor the threat. Ukraine has reported done a lot to fortify their northern border, and offense is much harder than defense, so I think it's long odds for the Russians, especially with troops who have never seen combat.

The Economist paywall allowed me to get as far as this:

Those are not our words, but the assessment of the head of Ukraine’s armed forces, General Valery Zaluzhny. In an unprecedented series of briefings within the past fortnight the general, along with Volodymyr Zelensky, Ukraine’s president, and General Oleksandr Syrsky, the head of its ground forces, warned us of the critical few months ahead. β€œThe Russians are preparing some 200,000 fresh troops,” General Zaluzhny told us. β€œI have no doubt they will have another go at Kyiv.” Western sources say that Russia’s commander, General Sergey Surovikin, has always seen this as a multi-year conflict.

Where is Russia going to find 200,000 fresh troops and equip and train them in time? Are these men already mobilised or will this be a new mobilisation? This is very worrying if true.

MissConductUS · 15/12/2022 20:04

@blueshoes, here's the whole article. By the way, you can sign up for a free account at the Economist that lets you read 5 articles a month. Keep in mind that it serves Ukraine's interest to maximize the threat. I think that most of the troops from the last mobilization have already been deployed, but some were held back for further training. But keep in mind that Russia was so short of men that their military trainers were thrown into battle previously and they're pulling 1960s era tanks out of storage.

Dec 15th 2022

Russia is MASSING men and arms for a new offensive. As soon as January, but more likely in the spring, it could launch a big attack from Donbas in the east, from the south or even from Belarus, a puppet state in the north. Russian troops will aim to drive back Ukrainian forces and could even stage a second attempt to take Kyiv, the capital.

Those are not our words, but the assessment of the head of Ukraine’s armed forces, General Valery Zaluzhny. In an unprecedented series of briefings within the past fortnight the general, along with Volodymyr Zelensky, Ukraine’s president, and General Oleksandr Syrsky, the head of its ground forces, warned us of the critical few months ahead. β€œThe Russians are preparing some 200,000 fresh troops,” General Zaluzhny told us. β€œI have no doubt they will have another go at Kyiv.” Western sources say that Russia’s commander, General Sergey Surovikin, has always seen this as a multi-year conflict.

This is not the view outside Ukraine. In the freezing mud, the conflict is thought to be deadlocked. There has been almost no movement for a month along the 1,000km or so of battlefront. Admiral Sir Tony Radakin, Britain’s most senior officer, this week said that, right now, a shortage of artillery shells means Russia’s scope for ground operations is β€œrapidly diminishing”.

The appearance of stalemate is feeding new interest in peace talks. France’s president, Emmanuel Macron, America’s Joe Biden and (for very different reasons) the Russian aggressor, Vladimir Putin, have all in recent days talked about a diplomatic solution. Many in the West, appalled at the suffering, and, more selfishly, wearying of high energy prices, would welcome this. But Ukraine’s commanders argue that it should not happen too soon, and they are right.

If Ukraine sought to stop the war today, freezing the battle lines where they are, the Russians could prepare better for the next attack. Mr Putin’s generals have been pushing on with their programme of training and deploying newly mobilised troops and retooling industry to help the war effortβ€”including, say Ukrainian commanders, by producing artillery shells. A freeze would repeat the mistake of the three years leading up to the invasion on February 24th 2022. In that time Mr Putin talked endlessly to the West’s leaders, who indulged him, while all the while readying his armies for invasion.

The West’s highest responsibility is to ensure that any Russian counter-offensive fails. For that, the supply of weapons must increase, and fast. Ukraine has used HIMARS, a rocket system the Americans have been supplying since June, to devastating effect against Russian ammunition dumps and command-and-control centres, allowing the rapid advance first in the north-east and then in the south. But Russia has moved many such targets back out of range of Ukraine’s HIMARS batteries. So Ukraine needs more powerful ordnance, like the ATACMS missiles that could hit targets at least twice as far away. And it needs lots of them, as well as regular ammunition and artillery of all kinds; plus tanks and helicopters and much else, too.

Ukraine also needs help repelling Russian attacks on civilian electrical, water and heating systems. These are aimed at wrecking Ukraine’s economy as well as battering the morale of Ukrainian troops on the front line, who are worried about their families back home.

As General Zaluzhny explains, Ukraine is running low on stocks of ammunition for its existing defence systems (mostly Soviet-era anti-aircraft kit being repurposed for use against missiles). It also needs many more, and better, anti-missile defences; the American Patriots that now seem to be forthcoming will be a huge boost, but training soldiers to use them takes time and they should have been supplied months ago.

If Ukraine is to emerge from this conflict as a thriving democracy, even air defence will not be enough: it also needs to recapture more territory. Although Russian forces have seized only a small slice of Ukraine’s Black Sea coast this year, that puts them close enough to all of the big Ukrainian-held ports to menace shipping. Apart from limited amounts of grain under a UN deal, Ukraine’s exports are still largely cut off.

Taking more territory also helps avoid a frozen conflict by showing that Mr Putin risks losing even the gains he has made. With today’s frontier, Russia has a land-bridge that can resupply annexed Crimea and threaten the south of the country. By contrast, if Ukraine cuts the land-bridge and retakes the northern coast of the Sea of Azov, it can negotiate from strength, putting even Crimea within artillery range. That way it can discredit the idea in Russia that Mr Putin can prevail simply by launching another attack in a few years’ time.

Ukraine is still willing to make the sacrifices that fighting on demands. Mr Zelensky told us that β€œ95 or 96% of people want to de-occupy all their territory”, recapturing everything that Russia seized in 2014 as well as what it has taken this year. He argues that Western promises of security guarantees are a poor substitute for his country’s territorial integrity. After all, similar guarantees offered to Ukraine by America and Britain in 1994, when it surrendered the Soviet nuclear weapons on its soil, proved almost worthless 20 years later.

Ukraine’s backers will have a slightly different point of view. They believe taking back everything is a maximalist aim that Ukraine will struggle to achieve, not least because it will in places mean freeing people who do not want to be liberated. Mr Putin’s nuclear threats are a reason to ensure that Russia is not victorious, but also a reason to require that Ukraine does not appear to threaten Russia’s recognised borders. Ukraine also needs to understand that the flow of military and financial aid depends on it avoiding internal rivalries that may be emerging, and on ensuring that it curbs long-standing corruption.

That said, the entire worldβ€”including Russiaβ€”would benefit from the failure of the revanchist idea that the old Russian empire can be recreated. If Ukraine is adequately supported, its commanders can push a long way towards the coast, and possibly take back most of what Mr Putin has seized since February. The more territory that Ukraine can recover the greater the chances of its lasting success. β– 

blueshoes · 15/12/2022 20:44

@MissConductUS thanks for the article, the Economist tip and your thoughts. That is reassuring.

Thereisnolight · 15/12/2022 20:48

.

ScrollingLeaves · 15/12/2022 23:34

As General Zaluzhny explains, Ukraine is running low on stocks of ammunition for its existing defence systems (mostly Soviet-era anti-aircraft kit being repurposed for use against missiles). It also needs many more, and better, anti-missile defences; the American Patriots that now seem to be forthcoming will be a huge boost, but training soldiers to use them takes time and they should have been supplied months ago.

They should have been supplied months ago, stood out for me.

Thank you for the article MissConduct.

Naem · 15/12/2022 23:53

Amazing that with all that has gone on, the UN seems still to be bowing to Russian pressure:
www.timesofisrael.com/bowing-to-russian-pressure-un-chief-wont-say-iran-drones-used-in-ukraine-report/

ScrollingLeaves · 16/12/2022 00:10

Naem Β· Yesterday 23:53
Amazing that with all that has gone on, the UN seems still to be bowing to Russian pressure:
Naem Β· Yesterday 23:53
www.timesofisrael.com/bowing-to-russian-pressure-un-chief-wont-say-iran-drones-used-in-ukraine-report/

That article is interesting Naem.
Citing two diplomats from Western Security Council member nations, Axios reported Wednesday that Russia has strongly pressed Guterres and his advisers not to order a probe, and has even threatened to end cooperation on other issues regarding Ukraine, including ensuring that vital global grain supplies continue.

Igotjelly · 16/12/2022 08:30

Reports of massive air strikes right across Ukraine this morning.

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 16/12/2022 09:08

Igotjelly · 16/12/2022 08:30

Reports of massive air strikes right across Ukraine this morning.

Yeah my guest is meant to be teaching 3 seminars today (his university is in Kyiv but the students are scattered across Ukraine) and he said he has had a lot of messages saying everything has been knocked out and in places they are not expecting to get electricity (and heat, and water) back for several days.
Luckily it is a little warmer there than here at the moment (it’s around 5 degrees).
I can hear him teaching now though so some of them must have shown up at least.

Btw, some good news, sorry if it’s already been mentioned on here- the HFU scheme payments have been put up for people hosting for a second year.
I am relieved the government is still committed to the scheme, I was worried payments would be scrapped to save money.

TheABC · 16/12/2022 12:07

There appears to have been another ammo dump blown up in Russia last night.

Igotjelly · 16/12/2022 12:19

Really interesting analysis in a recent Chatham House event around why we shouldn't discount yet the possibility that Russia may still win this war.

Looking at the precedent set in Syria, battlefield struggles led to overwhelming missile strikes against civilian infrastructure (think Aleppo) which subsequently made life so unbearable for the population that they capitulated and Assad's regime was able to regain control.

Igotjelly · 16/12/2022 12:22

Also talking about how Russia has for years abused its position in the UK Security Council - taking again Syria as an example its known now that the UN were receiving coordinates of field hospitals and then the Russians would bomb those hospitals. Russia has acted with absolute impunity within Syria and its no wonder that they expected the same in Ukraine.

Igotjelly · 16/12/2022 12:23

And finally talking about the resilience of the Syrian people and their absolute will to survive and thrive (very similar to Ukraine) but which was eventually snuffed out through sheer barbarity.

Greenshake · 16/12/2022 12:29

Further to the above, what would it actually mean if they did win the war? This is not something I have really ever considered and don’t really want to, truth be told.

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 16/12/2022 13:02

ISW Key Takeaways

www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/russian-offensive-campaign-assessment-december-15

Russia may be setting conditions to conduct a new offensive against Ukraineβ€”possibly against Kyivβ€”in winter 2023. Such an attack is extraordinarily unlikely to succeed.
A Russian attack from Belarus is not imminent at this time.

Russian President Vladimir Putin’s objectives in Ukraine have not changed.

Putin is using two simultaneous military efforts to pursue his objective of conquering Ukraine and securing major concessions.

Putin is likely setting conditions for a renewed offensive before the spring of 2023 to coerce Ukraine into offering concessions.

Russian forces may be setting conditions to attack from Belarusian territory, although ISW continues to assess that the Belarusian military will not join the fighting in Ukraine.

Ukrainian forces reportedly continued counteroffensive operations in the direction of Kreminna and Svatove.

Russian forces continued offensive operations in the Bakhmut and Avdiivka areas.

Russian forces continued defensive operations south of the Dnipro River in southern Ukraine.

The Russian officer corps continues to suffer heavy losses in Ukraine.

Ukrainian partisans conducted a sabotage attack on a power transformer substation in Berdyansk, Zaporizhia Oblast.

+++

Kyiv Indep Telegram

⚑️NYT: US to expand (kyivindependent.com/news-feed/nyt-us-to-expand-its-training-program-for-ukrainian-military-in-germany) its training program for Ukrainian military in Germany.
U.S. instructors will be able to train a battalion of Ukrainian soldiers (600-800 people) every month starting early next year, the New York Times reported, citing two unnamed American officials.

Zaluzhnyi: Russia will try to capture Kyiv again, trains 200,000 new soldiers (kyivindependent.com/news-feed/zaluzhnyi-russia-will-try-to-capture-kyiv-again-trains-200-000-new-soldiers)
β€œThe Russians are preparing some 200,000 fresh troops. I have no doubt they will have another go at Kyiv,” Valerii Zaluzhnyi, commander-in-chief of Ukraine's Armed Forces, told the Economist.

Zaluzhnyi: Ukraine preparing new major military operation. (kyivindependent.com/news-feed/zaluzhnyi-ukraine-preparing-new-major-military-operation)
The upcoming operation "is not visible yet," Chief Commander Valerii Zaluzhnyi said in an interview with the Economist.

⚑️Media: Alleged grenade launcher from Ukraine caused an explosion (kyivindependent.com/news-feed/media-alleged-grenade-launcher-from-ukraine-caused-an-explosion-in-polish-police-headquarters) in Polish police headquarters.
According to media reports, the cause of the explosion was the gift Polish General Jaroslaw Szymczyk received during his recent visit to Ukraine. Kyiv hasn't commented.

⚑️Germany provided Ukraine with additional IRIS-T missiles (kyivindependent.com/news-feed/germany-provided-ukraine-with-additional-iris-t-missiles).
Over the past week, Germany also provided Ukraine with 34 ambulances, 18 trucks β€œwith swap body system,” 12 armored recovery vehicles, as well as 78,500 rounds of ammunition for grenade launchers and artillery, according to the German government.

⚑️SBU: 15 Russian-led militants sentenced to 15 years in prison (kyivindependent.com/news-feed/sbu-15-russian-militants-sentenced-to-15-years-in-prison-for-state-treason) for state treason.

⚑️ EU leaders agree on 18 billion euros (kyivindependent.com/news-feed/eu-leaders-agree-on-18-billion-euros-aid-package-to-ukraine-for-next-year) aid package to Ukraine for next year.
The European Council said on Dec. 15 that it agreed on the allocation of 18 billion euros of macro-financial assistance to Ukraine in 2023.

⚑️ CNN: US Senate passes defense bill with (kyivindependent.com/news-feed/cnn-us-senate-passes-defence-bill-with-800-million-in-aid-to-ukraine) $800 million in aid to Ukraine.

⚑️Mayor: Water outages (kyivindependent.com/news-feed/mayor-explosions-in-kyiv) reported across Kyiv.

⚑️Emergency power outages introduced (kyivindependent.com/news-feed/emergency-power-outages-introduced-across-ukraine) across Ukraine.
Energy facilities were hit in several Ukrainian oblasts during Russia's latest mass missile strike on Dec. 16, according to Kyrylo Tymoshenko, deputy head of the President’s Office.

⚑️Air Force: Russia launched (kyivindependent.com/news-feed/air-force-russia-launched-over-60-missiles-at-ukraine-on-dec-16) over 60 missiles at Ukraine on Dec. 16

⚑️Authorities: 37 of 40 Russian missiles aimed at Kyiv shot down (kyivindependent.com/news-feed/authorities-37-of-40-russian-missiles-aimed-at-kyiv-shot-down-on-dec-16) on Dec. 16.

+++

UNITED24Media Telegram

🐧 Penguin Random House, one of the largest and most recognizable publishing houses in the world, has released a book with speeches by Volodymyr Zelensky as a sign of support for Ukraine.

In New York, the UN General Assembly adopted a resolution "The situation of human rights in the temporarily occupied Autonomous Republic of Crimea and the city of Sevastopol, Ukraine" in view of the conditions that have developed since the start of the large-scale Russian invasion.
82 countries supported the resolution, 14 voted against it, and 80 abstained.
[is world support diminishing?]

The EU summit did not agree on a gas price ceiling and the principle of common gas purchases, the decision was postponed until December 19.

Live:Ukraine Telegram

France and Italy have approved Ukraine's request for the delivery of Mamba air defense systems (SAMP-T). Now the last obstacles for this have been removed. Ambassador of France to Ukraine Etienne de Poncins said that the Italians agreed to transfer such systems.
SAMP-T anti-aircraft missile system is manufactured by the French-Italian company Eurosam. Its key components are the Aster 30 missile and the Arabel multifunctional radar. The range of target detection is up to 80 km. The SAM has a minimum reaction time and a high rate of fire (eight missiles can be launched in 10 seconds).

πŸ‡­πŸ‡ΊHungary froze Russian assets worth 870 million euros - recently it was only 3 thousand euros.
It is noteworthy that significant sanctioned assets were found in Hungary in November, just when the Orban government's struggle for EU funds with Brussels intensified.

πŸ‡±πŸ‡ΉπŸ‡±πŸ‡»πŸ‡ͺπŸ‡ͺLithuania signed a contract for the purchase of 8 HIMARS systems, another 20 systems are being purchased together with other Baltic countries

The contract is worth more than $500 million - it includes the purchase of training equipment, personnel training, installation of the system and integration into NATO's long-range missile defense network. The first deliveries are expected in 2025.

High losses ... again.

Ukraine Invasion: Part 36
Ukraine Invasion: Part 36
Ukraine Invasion: Part 36
ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 16/12/2022 13:04

Igotjelly · 16/12/2022 12:23

And finally talking about the resilience of the Syrian people and their absolute will to survive and thrive (very similar to Ukraine) but which was eventually snuffed out through sheer barbarity.

Few helped the Syrians though, or the Chechens.

I do wish we would send much much more heavy hardware to Ukraine, and wish we'd done it earlier.

Warning: there is apparently an unbearable clip around of Wagner with a female Ukrainian prisoner. The heavy warnings are Do Not Watch.

Igotjelly · 16/12/2022 13:07

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 16/12/2022 13:04

Few helped the Syrians though, or the Chechens.

I do wish we would send much much more heavy hardware to Ukraine, and wish we'd done it earlier.

Warning: there is apparently an unbearable clip around of Wagner with a female Ukrainian prisoner. The heavy warnings are Do Not Watch.

Absolutely, and that was the distinction that was being made. Basically the point was that the resilience and determination of the Ukrainian people isn't enough. If Western support falters its likely only a matter of time before the resilience crumbles too.

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 16/12/2022 13:16

Greenshake · 16/12/2022 12:29

Further to the above, what would it actually mean if they did win the war? This is not something I have really ever considered and don’t really want to, truth be told.

That's an interesting one.

The way I think it'll develop:

Obviously Ukraine would be back in the stone age. I think a lot of the population would be deported - the fighting spirit is too fierce and there would be a lot of partisan activity. Russia's going to want to stop that. They will work very hard to erase Ukrainian identity. It might well succeed, except for the Ukrainian diaspora; they did it with the Circassians and who now remembers them and their culture?

Russia will take over feeding large parts of the world with Ukrainian grain and thus extend its influence. It will carry on trying to sow discord. The Hawks will very likely stay in power. If Russia is defeated they may or may not stay in power, but if they win, it's more likely.

The West will arm heavily, but Russia will keep trying to subvert various countries inside the West as it has Hungary and Belorus. It will likely succeed in the medium - long term, when the shock of the Ukrainian war has faded. It will try very hard to destroy NATO from within, in future.

Trade links will begin again very soon after total Ukrainian domination and before a decade, possibly only 4-5 years, trade will be as it was before the war.

China will have significantly increased its influence and power over Russia.

The West will be more than slightly wary of Russia, but its sphere of influence will probably be more limited as it has not, historically, courted Africa in a positive way and both China and Russia have (the Belt and Bridges initiative etc). China is going to be a bigger overall threat, but Russia will be an aggressive and malevolent presence to the East of Europe.

Military planners, organisers and analysts will be considering and adapting their strategies for a long time to come. There will be more defense spending for a while at least. There will be a lot of development of military drone warfare!!

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 16/12/2022 13:25

... good for this village!!

Ukraine Invasion: Part 36