An alternative upbringing, low screen/tech, outdoors, is it possible anymore?

[MamaDuckling]

DH and I starting to feel increasingly uncomfortable and dissatisfied with the way life is panning out… I’m wondering if there are any groups (forums) for alternative/low tech parenting that anyone knows of and can recommend?

For example: Kids just want to sit and watch tv/screens. We take them out, we are active, museums, activities etc etc. But they say everything is ‘boring’. DD for example can’t even seem to sit in the car or on a bus now without saying how boring it is - it’s like they need constant stimulation.

These aren’t kids that were raised on screens - they have had access to screens in moderation, but the amount of choice, instant gratification/flick flick flick nature of kids tv hasn’t helped I don’t think.

DH and I want to raise kids who enjoy the outdoors, who enjoy creating, have hobbies. Where we live all I see is kids who are glued to their tech (both parents busy working and seem to rely on iPads/YouTube etc to babysit kids).

I do worry that this is a symptom of where we live. Busy busy lives, people always on the go, always working (and wfh, always plugged in). Short of upping sticks for the middle of nowhere, which we don’t want to do either, how can we change our lifestyle to drastically cut out this reliance on tech/digital entertainment? Do we need to go TV free? We have so far banned YouTube and any gaming is for a limited period at weekends. But I still feel it’s all the kids want to ever do.

Maybe it’s obvious and we just need to take the things away? But does that make things worse, create resentment for forcing an alternative lifestyle on them? We can’t be alone in not wanting to raise kids glued to devices?

Sorry for the rambling post, not really sure what I’m asking - has anyone got what they think is a good balance?

Surely you are part of the problem if you are referring to kids without a console (like my kids) as ‘weirdos’. So rude

All 4 of ours had unlimited time.

Theyve all grown up into normal functioning adults.

As your children get older they will just want to engage more with it.

Feels like Luddism.

Yes just take them away. We have a TV exclusively used for a DVD player (no Ariel wire). We watch mostly when poorly, sometimes used for educational purposes).
Odd educational game on family tablet but primarily used for Netflix documentaries, watching something on Netflix in a foreign language and YouTubein the form of learning to play an instrument.

I'd describe as low screen, probably about twice a week most weeks. At school they'd get tons of screen time a few times a day there so I feel pretty low compared to most.

About to start my children at a coding club which will be another time a week.

Thanks for starting this thread @MamaDuckling . It's something I think about a lot tbh. What @stripes416 says really resonates with me. Tied in with that, I think one of the problems is that many kids are basically under house arrest these days. I asked my parents what they did after school and weekends as kids (both grew up in wc families so no money for extras). My dad basically played footie in the street or on nearby fields and my mum rode her bike round the farm/ village or helped out on that. Both had far more freedom to roam than children now. It is very rare now that I see primary aged children out on their own or with other children their own age. So on the one hand I agree that children need to learn to be bored and entertain themselves. On the other I'm not sure it's realistic
to expect that when they're kept on such a short leash and can't go out and meet/ play with friends or play outside unsupervised.

I think another thing to interrogate yourself about is "what behaviour am I modelling?". I can't really say to the kids "no screens" when I'm scrolling myself.

We are going to have a bit of a reset in the New Year I think as weekdays they don't have a lot - maybe 90 minutes max as have a long school day and dont get home till 6:15. Weekends are more problematic. I feel like anytime that we're not actually out of the house, screens are on. They are at that tricky age where I think it becomes make or break on the screens - when they grow out of toys but don't yet have a lot of homework or other commitments.

There’s a Facebook group called 1000 hours outside.. maybe join and ask for advice. There might be a website too if your not on socials.

Completely agree that it's difficult without them being able to go outdoors independently. I remember going out with my friends just on the road I lived on with friends from quite a young age and I loved the freedom and being able to play ball games outside but there's no way I'd be letting mine do that.

A lot of people will probably disagree with me here but I think screen time is also important now, just because we live in such a technology driven world so I wouldn't feel guilt over your children accessing screens. We just live in a different time now. It does upset me though, I remember getting excited about having film nights with my family and we would go to a video store to hire a film out for the night and going to the shop and picking out the film was the best bit about it but that magic has definitely been lost now

My brother's family has this kind of life. Him and his wife are both very outdoor people so that's been picked up by their kids. They have no TV, just a projector connected to laptop and the kids screentime is maybe a film a week.

Kids are both under 8 so I wonder how things will change but if the older one is at mine, he's deeply interested in playing computer games for about 10 minutes, and the goes and does something else instead

We're the same. The only limit on screen time is their devices going off an hour before bed. My two read, so art, bake etc voluntarily. They put their screens down to come out without issue. They cope with "no screens at the dinner table" fine and we all follow that, adults included.

If they didn't do other stuff I'd be concerned but the fact that they moderate themselves is fine.

@MamaDuckling @Psychgrad i just found this: www.1000hoursoutside.com/ There's a book as well.0

We found reading and trips to the library a big help. Library at least every other weekend and they had to leave with at least 3 books. iPad time was restricted to evenings and occasional mornings at weekends, none on schooldays. They are teenagers now with iPhones and an Xbox but basically still the same system, at weekends at least, tech away at midday and find something to do. Which is often reading…Mid week they tend to be busy now with homework and hobbies.
Moving off grid sounds like a bad idea to me, they will be bored when they are teenagers and can’t come and go on their own. Although moving somewhere where kids play out a lot might be a good idea, but you can’t bank on your kids getting on with the neighbouring kids and all the other families staying put if they do…

This is us to.

And OP you said, DH and I want to raise kids who enjoy the outdoors, who enjoy creating, have hobbies it isn't tech or this, my kids love playing outside, my DDs imagination is amazing and she creates games and little worlds all by herself to play, and she swims, ice skates and does gymnastics

I agree with others that modelling is a huge part of it - if we are always on our phones and tablets, it is really hard to expect our children not to want to do the same.

I also clearly remember being bored out of my brain on transport when a child - long plane journeys were a nightmare as was being in a car for several hours.

Our children simply do not have access to screens on weekdays. School do not set homework online so fortunately nothing mandated from there and the tv is not used morning or evening. They still do not have access to a tablet other than for occasional Maths/Reading apps and YouTube is a complete ban. ILs allowed DD to watch YouTube kids during Covid and I noticed an obvious deterioration in her behaviour - as a PP said, it is the constant flitting between videos and not watching anything to the end. Plus the content is absolute trash

Being able to use our phones is not the norm for them either - it is just not an option on transport or in a restaurant to take one of our phones and entertain themselves. We have occasionally given them a screen at a restaurant when out with a group of adults and they have finished eating but we are all still socialising. In general, we go for meals with other families or by ourselves in which case they are expected to entertain themselves with colouring and socialising with other children.

I sometimes fear they will be further behind with technology relative to peers but I am also desperate for them not to be addicted to a screen.

They do some really interesting podcasts too. Look out for the ones with Angela Hanscom and Susan Lin. Their books are well worth reading too.
balanced and barefoot
who's raising the kids?

I think your suggestion about incorporating things they like e.g. swimming into your weekend is a good one. My eldest is 6. She enjoys watching some TV and doing some gaming (always with us on the PC and only at weekends). She is really good at entertaining herself at home with craft, imaginary games, playing in the garden with mud/sticks and enjoys going out to playgrounds, swimming etc. However she will generally moan she is bored at a National Trust place. It's OK if there is a playground, trees to climb, ducks to feed but wandering around in nature just doesn't interest her for long. Again museums are OK if there is something hands on, but just looking doesn't grab her attention.

@1AngelicFruitCake yeah I would agree! I’m dreading the peer pressure of wanting a phone etc. I teach 10 year olds now and the arguments are constantly around who said what on Snapchat last night 🙈 I’m just enjoying living in my little toddler bubble of no technology here 😂 I go on my own phone far too much though, wish I would stop!

You can restrict things relatively easily when they are young. We have screen timers on their tablets and always encouraged them to go and do other things, take them out places, keep them busy. Never have the TV on in the background. We switch it on to watch something specific and then switch it off.

But when they get to secondary there's nothing you can do about it. I know a couple of kids whose parents were quite strict and wouldn't let them have a smartphone, or really locked it down so no YouTube, no Minecraft etc. And what happened is they spent their time watching over someone else's shoulder or borrowing someone else's phone, and they were more obsessed with it than kids who had access. Also they have to have Chromebooks for school which have all their homework on, you can't put any app on it and short if standing behind them all the time you can't tell if they are doing homework like they claim, or watching Dan TDM.

I don't believe in the "self-regulation" thing, the vast majority of adults can't do it so most kids definitely can't and you're fooling yourself if you think your kids can.

Using an app which just won't let you play anymore was/is much less stressful than me physically taking away the tablet/phone. They never argued with the tablet saying no like they would have with me, going five more minutes etc.

NRTFT

this is very interesting as I’ve recently attended a talk by a man called Sam Tyrer who has created a programme around the links of technology and mental health in children. It was very eye opening and scary when you hear that the blue lights from screens actually stop your body producing melatonin and that they have been studies showing that war veterans and amputees get a bigger hit of pain relief from VR headsets and gaming than morphine.

Other issues were children now can’t manage delayed gratification because everything is so instant for them. The tantrums they have is not actually their fault as when the get given a device they get an instant hit if dopamine but when it’s taken away their levels drop and their brains can’t handle it. Also there is so much body dysmorphia, self harm, suicide, grooming going on, all linked to social media and gaming usage. There is also a huge increase in ADHD cases since the increase in social media and devices usage.

But, we are caught between a rock and a hard place as where do we draw the line in a world of technology. DH and I need to sit and put a plan in place to reduce screen time, as like others we don’t limit and have let them self regulate. But, now I’m not so certain we should be doing this.

I’ve just looked at class Dojo, the 2nd picture along is of my Yr6 DD and all her class on chrome books. A few pictures down is of a group of children who won certificates for Times Table Rockstars, all done on devices at home. Now they are being encouraged to compete in a national times table challenge at home against other schools…. If we say no devices on a school night because of the effects of screens on their health they miss out on this. And limit weekends, I think we’d create more anxiety as they’d then have to decide what’s more important, catching up with friends, the recent Roblox update, competing in the TTRS competition or their art videos they love and have taught themselves to draw by watching…

Another dilemma, my DD has just given up a sport she loves because she dosnt know anyone. She’s been going 3 months and is one of the youngest and smallest, all the other girls know each other from schools and living locally, but my DD feels so intimidated and has nothing in common, many are in high school looking like promo girls for Nike, GHD & Mac when my DD is a scruffy yr6 who has no interest in that stuff yet. At the same time she recently started in a new group at another activity, in the first day she’s so happy and asked if I could talk to the other parents and exchange user names for Fortnite and Roblox as all the other girls in the class are into it. So for her, her gaming has made her happy because she’s made new friends and bonded with other girls at her out of school activity.

There are many positives and negatives to using devices at home, it’s just how do we manage it 🤷‍♀️

Highlights from Sams talk:

Look at the Social dilemma on Netflix, it’s interview with ex executives from Facebook, Google etc..
Read a book called Low Kids
Watch out for Omegal is high on the radar in a lot of schools at the moment for peadophiles, a school not to far from us had 2 year 5 girls strip for a peadophile and send him naked pictures, they thought they were playing a game.
There is a recent study about Coco Melon and how it’s one of the worse things you could let your children watch.

Here is a news story link about him

www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/news/17559906.meet-lancs-nurse-leading-fight-social-media-depression/

There is also a huge increase in ADHD cases since the increase in social media and devices usage.

Screen time doesn't cause ADHD. It's a neurodevelopment condition with clear differences in brain structure.

How old are they and what sort of area do you live in? I think that's perfectly possible for primary school children and potentially early secondary school, however you'll need somewhere for them to play outside. We live in a city, but have parks nearby and the area we live in is safe enough to play out.
When they were too young to go out without an adult, we'd always do something outside every day, even in bad weather. As they got to the playing out age of 8/9/10/11, this was supplemented by them spending school holidays playing out with friends in the local parks or cycling round between each others houses. They actively preferred to do these things over watching a screen. If there's nowhere safe to play locally, then I imagine it's harder.

One you get past early secondary school the best thing to do is to encourage non screen hobbies. Otherwise they will be glued to their phone. And, let's face it, most adults can't put their phone down for 5 minutes either. So I'd always suggest modelling desired behaviour.

That's a very helpful post, that you, I agree with everything 100%. I am quite vigilant and had never actually heard of Omegle 😱. I don't know Coco Melon, what's wrong with it?

Here is what is said about Cocomelon

"Cocomelon is so hyper-stimulating that it actually acts as a drug, as a stimulant," "The brain gets a hit of dopamine from screen-time and it seems that the stronger the 'drug,' aka the level of stimulation a show delivers, the stronger the 'hit.

Bloody hell.

I've just taken a look at coco melon, and compared to the stuff I and my children used to watch, it's very fast paced.
I listened to a podcast but can't remember who by, but it was about getting rid of distractions when out with children, and letting them get immersed in what they are doing for as long as they want to do it. Making sand castles, mud pies or whatever. Sometimes I think we get bored and move children on before they are ready, which doesn't help with focus either. I also know that sometimes you think an activity will keep them absorbed for hours and they're off after 5 mins - it's not easy.
I used to meet a friend in the park and we'd sit at a park table with a flask and leave the children to it. Quite retro by today's standards, but then my own mum would just shoo us out of the door on our own, so times change.

I have boundaries on screen time, but am reasonably generous (DS1 finds it helps him decompress with his ASD as he can indulge his niche interests more easily than with other media). Yesterday we started the day with parkrun. They then had some screen time. They had a break part-way through the day, brought in firewood for us, saw their scooters and asked to play on those so played with scooters and water guns within some local cul-de-sacs. They then did some gaming online with a friend from another town. Across the weekend, they've been walking, gone to playgrounds, built dens and models, done jigsaws and painting.

The reality is that between childcare and formal activities, it's difficult to have informal social play like there was even a decade ago. I don't see any other children out to play on the green anymore like I used to. Those children are not at uni- there was a gap in ages and the habit's never restarted.

DS1 hates team sports, so minecraft and other gaming is his social glue for mixing with peers.
DM was really sniffy about me watching the dreaded Australian Soaps and it was isolating not being allowed to engage with my friends' interests at that age.

As long as what they watch isn't inappropriate what matters to me more is what they would be missing out on that's not screen based, and I feel like they are covering a healthy range of physical and mental skills and interests.
I won't deny that the likes of Preston are pretty vacuous, but I've had interesting chats with them about how he's had the initial money to make the money. It's better being aware of what they like and engaging with them about it than blanket banning.

I prefer to work with screentime as part of a balanced lifestyle rather than resist. And if my darlings do mutter that they're bored, they quickly find things to do other than the chores I helpfully suggest 😂

Haven't RTFT but as others must have said, the requirements of school will probably work against your intent to go with low screen/ tech. DD is 11 and has several apps for homework, planning, and attainment targets. The classes are not supposed to use phones in school, yet there are regularly moments where the teachers ask for an 'exception' like getting a phone out in order to use an online form to do a test or similar (something that, in the structure they use, also requires a gmail email account which is a family version linked to a parental one because at present they are not old enough).

I have never used Tiktok and Whatsapp only very sparingly when I have no alternative. In order to know what is going on with school (events, payments...), there are Facebook groups for both the school and the year groups that you would be worse off, in terms of information, for not linking into.

Just handing in homework or receiving worksheets - or in some cases, what used to be done with a textbook - is not an option.

Talks on e-safety for this age group reiterated that just going from no access to age-appropriate access is rarely successful or good at showing the style of the dangers to be savvy about, where there has not been a supervised run-up when they will still be guided by you.

I would much rather have a totally different approach to this, but resistance seems to be ignored, not so much futile.

For outdoor and 'discovery' style pursuits - get them included in several groups of their own age range, which will be much more attractive than their parents taking them to look at and do things.

Yep, this is why we are outdoors at weekends so that they are running through woods, climbing trees etc.