Letby Case (part 2)

[OneFrenchEgg]

www.mumsnet.com/talk/_chat/4652340-lucy-letby-court-case?reply=121815754

follow up, remember rules around discussion of active cases

I expected maybe character witnesses? Anyone from when she was a student nurse? As she was only 25 when this happened. She would have only been in the job max 3 or 4 years. Is that something that we would expect? Or even... would we expect her to Google her methods- would there not be any trace on her phone of her googling air embolism? Surprised there isn't anything.

Exactly. It’s just not plausible.

What would be the differential diagnosis for symptoms consistent with air embolism?

I'm almost five years qualified in my job on a level 3 nicu unit. I'm seen as one of the senior nurses now. And have been for a long time. The knowledge you learn on nicu is immense and intense

@RafaistheKingofClay

There isn't a differential diagnosis.

I guess with NEC, we look for distended abdomen, prominent veins, discolouration but it's a dusky colour on the abdomen. And more often than not comes with lead up symptoms such as temp instability, increase in FiO2. Baby would be pale/mottled

Same with sepsis, and we are very hot on septic screens in nicu. A slight change in temp/ HR we screen and start antibiotics

If a baby slips or dislodges their breathing tube no nicu nurse on the planet would wait for them to self correct. I think she's done herself there too. They have a breathing tube for a reason, because they can't self correct. So you take the tube out. You neopuff and maybe they'll either be stepped down to non invasive or a new tube would like to be inserted. Baby's on nicu are rarely completely sedated when intubated. Only in the severely sick generally they will have morphine running via infusion but as little as 8mcgs an hour. So it's possible for these babies to set extubated but we would never leave them self correct.

I'm not questioning your experience after 3 or 4 years. I'm saying it was only 3 or 4 years since she was a student, and under more close supervision, and in the way of discussing care, learning IVs etc.

Having read a few recent news articles on LL and if we are allowed to discuss what was her experience, character before she trained as a nurse? Character at school, friends etc?

From working with solicitors and barristers including KC as Ben Myers is, I’m quite surprised he was instructed with from what I’ve read here none or very limited medical knowledge, would’ve thought was key in this case.

@Prevmidwife oh I didn't think you were. Just pointing out that you tend to become "senior" on nicu quite quickly.

I often think it's mad that 5 years ago I didn't know any of what I know today in my job and I was a student nurse. It's scary

Unfortunately the way the nhs is now, you become senior very quickly due to a poor skill mix, and the massive amount of staff who have retired early or left due to stress etc. It is the same in midwifery. Once you've been in the job 20 years however, you learn the true meaning or experience and seniority! Getting your band 6, and being the most qualified isn't necessarily senior although it may be in a unit with a poor skill mix.

Are you asking here or saying that info is available. I've seen no mention of anything about her character really. Again, maybe an insignificant detail compared to the other arguments from the prosecution, but something I'd be interested to hear

@Prevmidwife I'm currently battling my own mind whether to stay in nursing or not. I adore being with the babies. But it's so unsafe. On shift last week I had responsibility for two vented babies and 2 cpap babies in a room on my own. We were 9 nurses that night, we should have been 19.

But that's for another thread.

I'm just catching up with the podcast

@GonnaGetGoingReturns

I have wondered if there is an injunction of sorts or if the judge has directed these things are not to be discussed.

I’ve been v interested from the get go in her early life and etc but there’s literally nothing.

On a FB group it was suggested that she has a half brother (via her dad but not part of each others lives)

It’s also been fairly hushed that she was having an affair with Dr A. This was the same Dr who when he gave evidence against her she burst into tears and ran off the stand. I mean if all the things to get emotional over….

I also find it odd that she cried over Dr A and when shown photos of her bedroom and when her cats were mentioned but didn’t shed a tear when the babies were being discussed.

I assumed the same. Probably don't wany to jeopardise the trial especially with the magnitude of it. There's very little on the news and when I mention it to people it's quite rare that they even know it is going on. I guess that will all change very soon whatever the outcome.

I don’t know how a person who commits these crimes is not in a mental unit I really don’t.

You have to be some sort of mentally compromised or is it just pure evil?

I fully agree with you!

I guess they are reminders of what she has lost. I would imagine she is a very controlling person, from the text messages to colleagues etc... which sound very sincere but also very manipulative and self centred. She's lost that control now. I think people/things that she genuinely cared about being shown at trial are her vulnerability.

I also find it odd that she hasn't played on perhaps been overstretched and making mistakes herself. She's seems almost more worried about her reputation as a competent nurse than those poor babies. Ironic since she's on trial for their murders.

I would agree.

The more and more the case goes on I do wonder if there was perhaps one instance where a baby deteriorated naturally and something about it was addictive for her.

Off topic. but I'm currently watching a programme on Netflix (fictional) but one of the lead characters had a near death experience (run over by car) and she is now hooked on that feeling and recreating it. I know it's very different but I guess we will never know why somebody does something like this.

That's obviously If she is guilty.

@GemmaN17

well that’s what they say isn’t it? That these type of people get addicted to the high that it brings

I mean the triplets at the end that was absolutely crazy what happened there and the KC said this was when she well and truly lost control of herself

I still keep thinking ‘has she really done it’ because something still feels really really off about the whole thing

I mean I’m wondering what colleagues etc thought about her but I guess she was well liked as she was out socialising with them a lot so not like she was a loner

I think that’s what it could be that she doesn’t fit the usual profile of a serial killer

Many serial killers are extroverted and we'll liked, even charismatic, many hide in plain sight, I think it's a misconception that most are loners.

But then it was also reported that she fell out with a few members of staff... wonder why and were they maybe on to her?

Also wondered, did she discover herself doing this as she was lazy, and wanted to be texting friends etc so pushed the feeds through quickly, and then started to revel from the attention/drama or did she do it intentionally to cause harm from the beginning, if found guilty.

We can only speculate what a person's motive would be. Hypothetically I thought it could be simple passive aggression. You think I'm not good enough to be in Nursery 1/look after high dependency babies? Well look what's happened when someone else gets them.... I know someone doing this to make a petty point sounds far fetched but if we're dealing with a sociopath it's possible. Just my opinion. People around them are mere props.

I juts said this because the prosecution at one point suggested it was because she was too busy texting to be taking time on the feeds. Interesting the defence has brought this exchange up today.

Finding defence closing speech very interesting so far... so there WERE events identified when Letby wasn't on shift. We had discussed that possibility on this thread.

I personally had no idea so much is discussed in closing speeches. I didn't realise they would talk about stuff that hadn't been mentioned in the trial?

Apparently those things were mentioned we just didn’t get to read about them - I guess not everything is put into the news feeds

How do you think Myers is doing?