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Letby Case (part 2)

990 replies

OneFrenchEgg · 26/11/2022 08:14

www.mumsnet.com/talk/_chat/4652340-lucy-letby-court-case?reply=121815754

follow up, remember rules around discussion of active cases

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17
Quitelikeit · 23/06/2023 15:18

Marteenie · 23/06/2023 14:46

For anyone that's been following the entire trial lots of the medical stuff was spoken about at the start so is a case of referring back.

I wish you had been here throughout

I’ve no knowledge of how barristers operate so it’s great to have someone here like you to offer clarity

I did end up concluding that Mr Myers must know what he is doing and my expectations were ridiculous as how could they be anything else if I know nothing of their role!

It would be interesting to hear your opinion of his closing statement (when it finally happens)

Marteenie · 23/06/2023 15:32

Quitelikeit · 23/06/2023 15:18

I wish you had been here throughout

I’ve no knowledge of how barristers operate so it’s great to have someone here like you to offer clarity

I did end up concluding that Mr Myers must know what he is doing and my expectations were ridiculous as how could they be anything else if I know nothing of their role!

It would be interesting to hear your opinion of his closing statement (when it finally happens)

The trial has been so long at this point I think it's hard to cross reference all of the evidence and the testimonies. If you haven't listened to it yet the daily mail (eurgh I know) podcast is very informative and when relevant refers back to previous parts of the trial which is really useful.

Personally it seems the angle was very much one of a poorly staffed unit of which there were fundamental errors and negligence which wasn't LL, until LL gave testimony which seemed to be suggesting a conspiracy by some of the doctors and a denial that some agreed facts happened which is pretty savage at this stage as well as more or less accusing a colleague in parts. Her testimony seemed at odds with the angle the defence had been seemingly going for beforehand, I'm very interested in the closing statement and do wonder if this new info she shared affected who was called to the stand.

Marteenie · 23/06/2023 15:34

But yes he is very experienced and has worked on a range of high profile cases:

https://www.exchangechambers.co.uk/people/benjamin-myers-kc/

Pretty much all of the profiles refer to him having immaculate attention to detail and extremely thorough preparation; I highly doubt he would have entered the court without applying the same here. He also did a good job of questioning the independent witnesses (besides when it got heated) which demonstrated he had an understanding of the medical side (as well as the educated assumption he has accessed the knowledge he required for this case).

Benjamin Myers KC - Criminal CV | Exchange Chambers

Ben specialises in serious crime. He is instructed consistently in cases of murder, manslaughter, high value fraud, money laundering, multimillion-pound confiscation under POCA, drug trafficking, national and international organised crime, rape, histor...

https://www.exchangechambers.co.uk/people/benjamin-myers-kc

Mirabai · 23/06/2023 16:07

Marteenie · 23/06/2023 14:45

The defence can call any experts they deem relevant to the stand, the fact none were medical and it was just a plumber was...interesting.

I actually attended court on one of the days and there was vast medical detail given, it was reported earlier in the case that the jury were given the ipads because there was such a large amount of this sort of detail and background to consider; they were also given demonstrations and explanations as to various procedures.

Medical trials are always challenging because there is so very rarely definitive and absolute evidence, I find it strange that people are concluding there hasn't been medical input though or that BM wouldn't have consulted and had access to people with extensive knowledge- of course he did.

No-one has said there wasn’t medical input, or that BM wouldn’t have access to medical experts to advise them, of course he did. There was a lot of medical info earlier in the trial, aspects of which were covered and discussed on this thread, if you look back. The point is that the defence hasn’t countered the prosecution assertions on medical data or brought expert witnesses to the stand as one might expect.

Mirabai · 23/06/2023 16:23

Personally it seems the angle was very much one of a poorly staffed unit of which there were fundamental errors and negligence which wasn't LL, until LL gave testimony which seemed to be suggesting a conspiracy by some of the doctors and a denial that some agreed facts happened which is pretty savage at this stage as well as more or less accusing a colleague in parts.

It was initially, I just think that aspect of the case could have been stronger. The claim that a group of doctors decided she was responsible doesn’t contradict that of itself as their jobs were on the line as I said before.

RafaistheKingofClay · 23/06/2023 16:45

One would expect it. So if you accept that BM is a competent lawyer with excellent attention to detail and has had medical input, then you need to question why he didn’t put those expert witnesses on the stand to either provide a plausible alternative cause of death rather than air embolism or explain how the issues on the ward caused either air embolism or the alternative cause of death.

Tje ward has so many issues with staffing/rotas/negligence that multiple members of staff were accidentally causing air embolisms seems to be stretching the bounds of plausibility.

Marteenie · 23/06/2023 16:45

Mirabai · 23/06/2023 16:23

Personally it seems the angle was very much one of a poorly staffed unit of which there were fundamental errors and negligence which wasn't LL, until LL gave testimony which seemed to be suggesting a conspiracy by some of the doctors and a denial that some agreed facts happened which is pretty savage at this stage as well as more or less accusing a colleague in parts.

It was initially, I just think that aspect of the case could have been stronger. The claim that a group of doctors decided she was responsible doesn’t contradict that of itself as their jobs were on the line as I said before.

The point is that the defence hasn’t countered the prosecution assertions on medical data or brought expert witnesses to the stand as one might expect.

Indeed, I wonder why that is? Occams razor suggests it's because there isn't anything to really contest.

The gang of 4 to me is ludicrous, it wouldn't just be a case of getting her off of the ward, it would be about also setting up enough evidence for CPS to get it this far. The organised handover sheets, the searches on pivotal dates, proven falsifying of notes etc would be some extraordinary work amongst everything else. The fact it wasn't mentioned before she took the stand is very odd indeed-i suspect BM has a strong gin that evening.

Quitelikeit · 23/06/2023 17:58

@Marteenie

Do you know how often a Barrister would meet their client - well roughly? In a case of this magnitude

Mirabai · 23/06/2023 18:17

It’s very bizarre to infer that because that wasn’t done it couldn’t be done. That’s not how trials work - if the defence didn’t argue a case because it was open and shut they would be failing in their duty to advocate effectively for their client. They must put in a robust defence, however implausible. Expert witnesses can be found to argue all kinds of unlikely things at trials.*

Weaknesses include - in the air embolism cases more could have been done to highlight the ways in which they can happen accidentally, (notwithstanding how rare that may be): from injection; holes in catheter/tube; improper priming or insertion or removal of catheter/tube/IV.

In a unit where a tube was inserted into a trachea instead of an oesophagus and no-one noticed, that incorrect treatment given a baby prior to transfer to Alder Hey that caused deterioration which had to be corrected by the latter team - can we be 100% sure that person or persons in the unit may have been a bit gung ho/slapdash inserting/removing tubing and no-one noticed those either. I’m not sure how likely it is, but it’s not impossible. Noah Robinson’s family requested that the locum who had treated him was taken off the ward, but he was later returned. What other substandard practices were overlooked?

Equally - the milk projectile vomit - there wasn’t any hard evidence in that episode to show it was the result of LL’s actions. The baby’s registered feed was by another nurse. Can we be 100% sure that nurse didn’t give a double dose by mistake?

The insulin cases, in which there is evidence of human intervention, don’t have hard evidence to link them to LL, and, like a pp, I would be reluctant convict someone of murder on the basis of a blood test.

*For example, I’ve seen a case of a long term diagnosed schizophrenic on trial for a criminal offence, that took place while he had stopped his meds and was by various accounts experiencing a psychotic episode. The defence brought in an expert witness psychiatrist to argue that, contrary to his long time psychiatrists’ opinions and the opinion of the prison psychiatrist where he was on remand that he was not in fact psychotic or schizophrenic, and managed to convince the jury of this. The case has now gone to appeal.

MagicClawHasNoChildren · 23/06/2023 18:22

@Marteenie

Indeed, I wonder why that is? Occams razor suggests it's because there isn't anything to really contest.

The gang of 4 to me is ludicrous, it wouldn't just be a case of getting her off of the ward, it would be about also setting up enough evidence for CPS to get it this far. The organised handover sheets, the searches on pivotal dates, proven falsifying of notes etc would be some extraordinary work amongst everything else. The fact it wasn't mentioned before she took the stand is very odd indeed-i suspect BM has a strong gin that evening.

Hard agree. And, as NJ pointed out, how far does this conspiracy go? Are the parents included, like the poor parents of Child E? Medical experts don't have a choice in testifying - they're summoned by the court if required. So why has the defence not had any summoned? Is it because they don't feel the need to mount a defence (in which case, why put LL and the facilities manager in the witness box)? Or is it because no medical experts can corroborate what LL is alleging?

GemmaN17 · 23/06/2023 18:54

Mirabai · 23/06/2023 18:17

It’s very bizarre to infer that because that wasn’t done it couldn’t be done. That’s not how trials work - if the defence didn’t argue a case because it was open and shut they would be failing in their duty to advocate effectively for their client. They must put in a robust defence, however implausible. Expert witnesses can be found to argue all kinds of unlikely things at trials.*

Weaknesses include - in the air embolism cases more could have been done to highlight the ways in which they can happen accidentally, (notwithstanding how rare that may be): from injection; holes in catheter/tube; improper priming or insertion or removal of catheter/tube/IV.

In a unit where a tube was inserted into a trachea instead of an oesophagus and no-one noticed, that incorrect treatment given a baby prior to transfer to Alder Hey that caused deterioration which had to be corrected by the latter team - can we be 100% sure that person or persons in the unit may have been a bit gung ho/slapdash inserting/removing tubing and no-one noticed those either. I’m not sure how likely it is, but it’s not impossible. Noah Robinson’s family requested that the locum who had treated him was taken off the ward, but he was later returned. What other substandard practices were overlooked?

Equally - the milk projectile vomit - there wasn’t any hard evidence in that episode to show it was the result of LL’s actions. The baby’s registered feed was by another nurse. Can we be 100% sure that nurse didn’t give a double dose by mistake?

The insulin cases, in which there is evidence of human intervention, don’t have hard evidence to link them to LL, and, like a pp, I would be reluctant convict someone of murder on the basis of a blood test.

*For example, I’ve seen a case of a long term diagnosed schizophrenic on trial for a criminal offence, that took place while he had stopped his meds and was by various accounts experiencing a psychotic episode. The defence brought in an expert witness psychiatrist to argue that, contrary to his long time psychiatrists’ opinions and the opinion of the prison psychiatrist where he was on remand that he was not in fact psychotic or schizophrenic, and managed to convince the jury of this. The case has now gone to appeal.

I think getting an expert witness to say something is possible although extremely unlikely would be the prosecutions' dream.

Can you imagine telling a jury that although improbable you are expected to believe 22 instances of such events happened with the same person present at each? That certainly would not be a robust defence as you put it.

Shall we wait and see what the defence closing statement is?

mrsneate · 23/06/2023 18:55

Mirabai · 23/06/2023 18:17

It’s very bizarre to infer that because that wasn’t done it couldn’t be done. That’s not how trials work - if the defence didn’t argue a case because it was open and shut they would be failing in their duty to advocate effectively for their client. They must put in a robust defence, however implausible. Expert witnesses can be found to argue all kinds of unlikely things at trials.*

Weaknesses include - in the air embolism cases more could have been done to highlight the ways in which they can happen accidentally, (notwithstanding how rare that may be): from injection; holes in catheter/tube; improper priming or insertion or removal of catheter/tube/IV.

In a unit where a tube was inserted into a trachea instead of an oesophagus and no-one noticed, that incorrect treatment given a baby prior to transfer to Alder Hey that caused deterioration which had to be corrected by the latter team - can we be 100% sure that person or persons in the unit may have been a bit gung ho/slapdash inserting/removing tubing and no-one noticed those either. I’m not sure how likely it is, but it’s not impossible. Noah Robinson’s family requested that the locum who had treated him was taken off the ward, but he was later returned. What other substandard practices were overlooked?

Equally - the milk projectile vomit - there wasn’t any hard evidence in that episode to show it was the result of LL’s actions. The baby’s registered feed was by another nurse. Can we be 100% sure that nurse didn’t give a double dose by mistake?

The insulin cases, in which there is evidence of human intervention, don’t have hard evidence to link them to LL, and, like a pp, I would be reluctant convict someone of murder on the basis of a blood test.

*For example, I’ve seen a case of a long term diagnosed schizophrenic on trial for a criminal offence, that took place while he had stopped his meds and was by various accounts experiencing a psychotic episode. The defence brought in an expert witness psychiatrist to argue that, contrary to his long time psychiatrists’ opinions and the opinion of the prison psychiatrist where he was on remand that he was not in fact psychotic or schizophrenic, and managed to convince the jury of this. The case has now gone to appeal.

We use the same pumps.., any air/whole would make the pump alarm very loudly as demonstrated in the court,

The air would have had to have been pushed in via the cannula site via a syringe when flushing the site before or after medication,

Again with air in the stomach, we always aspirate air BEFORE we feed. And gravity feed the babies,

Lots of air in the distended stomach could be a result of the CPAP, but generally the NG would be left open to air in this case... the air in the stomachs of the babies who died. Suggests she pushed their feeds to make it go quicker, which is dangerous. Premature babies are very high risk of their bowels perforating.

Happy to answer any questions

Mirabai · 23/06/2023 19:05

GemmaN17 · 23/06/2023 18:54

I think getting an expert witness to say something is possible although extremely unlikely would be the prosecutions' dream.

Can you imagine telling a jury that although improbable you are expected to believe 22 instances of such events happened with the same person present at each? That certainly would not be a robust defence as you put it.

Shall we wait and see what the defence closing statement is?

An expert witness won’t be asked to speculate about all 22 cases, just asked to comment on the data in front of them on a particular case or set of similar cases.

Prevmidwife · 23/06/2023 19:09

Mirabai · 23/06/2023 16:23

Personally it seems the angle was very much one of a poorly staffed unit of which there were fundamental errors and negligence which wasn't LL, until LL gave testimony which seemed to be suggesting a conspiracy by some of the doctors and a denial that some agreed facts happened which is pretty savage at this stage as well as more or less accusing a colleague in parts.

It was initially, I just think that aspect of the case could have been stronger. The claim that a group of doctors decided she was responsible doesn’t contradict that of itself as their jobs were on the line as I said before.

Again I agree. I've followed from the beginning, and listened to every mail podcast. I still feel it lacked detail, and I still feel prosecution arguments weren't countered which surprised me. Despite that I'm sure everyone involved knows what they are doing.

GemmaN17 · 23/06/2023 19:11

Prevmidwife · 23/06/2023 19:09

Again I agree. I've followed from the beginning, and listened to every mail podcast. I still feel it lacked detail, and I still feel prosecution arguments weren't countered which surprised me. Despite that I'm sure everyone involved knows what they are doing.

I think your last sentence is spot on.

RafaistheKingofClay · 23/06/2023 19:11

And if their opinion is the most likely cause of death is an air embolism and that’s highly unlikely to be accidental or something that could happen by mistake? How does that help the defence?

Mirabai · 23/06/2023 19:17

mrsneate · 23/06/2023 18:55

We use the same pumps.., any air/whole would make the pump alarm very loudly as demonstrated in the court,

The air would have had to have been pushed in via the cannula site via a syringe when flushing the site before or after medication,

Again with air in the stomach, we always aspirate air BEFORE we feed. And gravity feed the babies,

Lots of air in the distended stomach could be a result of the CPAP, but generally the NG would be left open to air in this case... the air in the stomachs of the babies who died. Suggests she pushed their feeds to make it go quicker, which is dangerous. Premature babies are very high risk of their bowels perforating.

Happy to answer any questions

I heard the arguments made in court and they were convincing at the time but then I spoke to medic friends who said actually xyz, and then it wasn’t so clear cut.

In the case of aspirating before feed - that’s assuming no-one makes mistakes, and we have 2 major mistakes on record in this unit 1 that ended in death and the other in cerebral palsy. In the US medical mistake is estimated to be 3rd leading cause of death after heart disease and cancer.

That said, so many “mistakes” in one unit is hard to explain.

Mirabai · 23/06/2023 19:20

Or rather of the same mistake.

Marteenie · 23/06/2023 19:50

Mirabai · 23/06/2023 18:17

It’s very bizarre to infer that because that wasn’t done it couldn’t be done. That’s not how trials work - if the defence didn’t argue a case because it was open and shut they would be failing in their duty to advocate effectively for their client. They must put in a robust defence, however implausible. Expert witnesses can be found to argue all kinds of unlikely things at trials.*

Weaknesses include - in the air embolism cases more could have been done to highlight the ways in which they can happen accidentally, (notwithstanding how rare that may be): from injection; holes in catheter/tube; improper priming or insertion or removal of catheter/tube/IV.

In a unit where a tube was inserted into a trachea instead of an oesophagus and no-one noticed, that incorrect treatment given a baby prior to transfer to Alder Hey that caused deterioration which had to be corrected by the latter team - can we be 100% sure that person or persons in the unit may have been a bit gung ho/slapdash inserting/removing tubing and no-one noticed those either. I’m not sure how likely it is, but it’s not impossible. Noah Robinson’s family requested that the locum who had treated him was taken off the ward, but he was later returned. What other substandard practices were overlooked?

Equally - the milk projectile vomit - there wasn’t any hard evidence in that episode to show it was the result of LL’s actions. The baby’s registered feed was by another nurse. Can we be 100% sure that nurse didn’t give a double dose by mistake?

The insulin cases, in which there is evidence of human intervention, don’t have hard evidence to link them to LL, and, like a pp, I would be reluctant convict someone of murder on the basis of a blood test.

*For example, I’ve seen a case of a long term diagnosed schizophrenic on trial for a criminal offence, that took place while he had stopped his meds and was by various accounts experiencing a psychotic episode. The defence brought in an expert witness psychiatrist to argue that, contrary to his long time psychiatrists’ opinions and the opinion of the prison psychiatrist where he was on remand that he was not in fact psychotic or schizophrenic, and managed to convince the jury of this. The case has now gone to appeal.

Unless people believe BM is part of a conspiracy also to throw her under the bus (which is quite the accusation) then there can only be one logical reason that the only expert they called upon was a plumber as there's nothing to suggest he is incapable of doing his job. There was doubt raised when the independent medical testimony was given near the start, presumably they viewed that as enough to sow seeds of doubt and didn't want to push the matter which would likely go to their disadvantage when it would invariably be pointed out how unusual these scenarios are. Personally I think both can be true- a short staffed ward with devastating errors made at times and someone causing deliberate harm. It is bizarre that the short staff angle and whatever else wasn't delved into deeper, I think her statements on the stand really threw a curve ball.

Obviously everyone has a different opinion and ours don't matter it's that of the jury who do have a lot of additional information- I was surprised at just how much wasn't reported from the morning and afternoon sessions I attended and along with the extensive resources and background information they have a far far more comprehensive overview. The accompanying info such as the handover notes, texts, false datixes, admission that she'd often be on the ward outside of her regular shifts and this wouldn't be tracked necessarily even by the swipes can be hard to put into a timeline and relate back to each case but of course they're important to consider as there isn't hard CCTV or other evidence which makes it a very complex case.

I do still find these bits from his opening statement quite odd:

Sometimes what happened was a genuine deterioration in the health of one or other of these children.

There doesn't seem to have been any compelling alternatives put forward to the ones that fall out of the 'sometimes'- insulin was agreed to have had to have been deliberate but yes but I didn't do it doesn't seem overly....thorough.

When we strip away all the surrounding detail, messages, Facebook searches, even amateur psychology, the case will come down to the medical evidence.

Of which the defence didn't seem to utilise much despite recognising this case would likely hang on the medical evidence?

"And in that dock is a young woman who says this is not her fault."

Doesn't seem overly convincing, not her fault doesn't even sound like claiming she didn't do it just that she's not at fault.

I know probably minor and semantics, but BM uses 'babies' throughout whereas when on the stand LL always says 'children' ie I didn't harm any children, seems weird to not say babies but just my opinion. Due to DHs job i know a lot of paeds HCPs and none call neonates children but babies, anecdotal I know but sounded purposeful in a way. I also don't see why if it's being insinuated these were genuine errors being made they didn't put forward that LL as an allegedly competent nurse didn't identify these or whatever?

I was very open minded until she took the stand, but am always interested to hear other opinions and acknowledge its just my view and don't think I am absolutely right or whatever.

GemmaN17 · 23/06/2023 20:21

Marteenie · 23/06/2023 19:50

Unless people believe BM is part of a conspiracy also to throw her under the bus (which is quite the accusation) then there can only be one logical reason that the only expert they called upon was a plumber as there's nothing to suggest he is incapable of doing his job. There was doubt raised when the independent medical testimony was given near the start, presumably they viewed that as enough to sow seeds of doubt and didn't want to push the matter which would likely go to their disadvantage when it would invariably be pointed out how unusual these scenarios are. Personally I think both can be true- a short staffed ward with devastating errors made at times and someone causing deliberate harm. It is bizarre that the short staff angle and whatever else wasn't delved into deeper, I think her statements on the stand really threw a curve ball.

Obviously everyone has a different opinion and ours don't matter it's that of the jury who do have a lot of additional information- I was surprised at just how much wasn't reported from the morning and afternoon sessions I attended and along with the extensive resources and background information they have a far far more comprehensive overview. The accompanying info such as the handover notes, texts, false datixes, admission that she'd often be on the ward outside of her regular shifts and this wouldn't be tracked necessarily even by the swipes can be hard to put into a timeline and relate back to each case but of course they're important to consider as there isn't hard CCTV or other evidence which makes it a very complex case.

I do still find these bits from his opening statement quite odd:

Sometimes what happened was a genuine deterioration in the health of one or other of these children.

There doesn't seem to have been any compelling alternatives put forward to the ones that fall out of the 'sometimes'- insulin was agreed to have had to have been deliberate but yes but I didn't do it doesn't seem overly....thorough.

When we strip away all the surrounding detail, messages, Facebook searches, even amateur psychology, the case will come down to the medical evidence.

Of which the defence didn't seem to utilise much despite recognising this case would likely hang on the medical evidence?

"And in that dock is a young woman who says this is not her fault."

Doesn't seem overly convincing, not her fault doesn't even sound like claiming she didn't do it just that she's not at fault.

I know probably minor and semantics, but BM uses 'babies' throughout whereas when on the stand LL always says 'children' ie I didn't harm any children, seems weird to not say babies but just my opinion. Due to DHs job i know a lot of paeds HCPs and none call neonates children but babies, anecdotal I know but sounded purposeful in a way. I also don't see why if it's being insinuated these were genuine errors being made they didn't put forward that LL as an allegedly competent nurse didn't identify these or whatever?

I was very open minded until she took the stand, but am always interested to hear other opinions and acknowledge its just my view and don't think I am absolutely right or whatever.

I was firmly in camp undecided too until she took the stand. I started posting after she had started giving evidence.

I hadn't noticed the bit about calling them children and not babies, that's interesting. The first thing that came to mind is they would be children and not babies now. I don't know why but that sends little chill down my spine, perhaps she doesnt see death as finite?? If she did kill them which is obviously still to be deliberated on. No idea what I'm trying to say here so better to ignore me probably.

I think you are right about the vast amounts of information we have no idea about that will have been discussed. I guess this is why sometimes these cases do not end the way they seem to be heading.

Mirabai · 23/06/2023 20:33

the case will come down to the medical evidence

In fact the case comes down to circumstantial evidence. There’s the medical data in each case, which have to be taken separately on their own merits, and some cases are stronger than others. No case has incontrovertible evidence that, if you accept a crime has been committed, that it was indisputably LL. Which is problematic. The general argument is that she was the one around.

If this were a civil case, decided on the balance of probabilities, I’d say we’ve hit that level of proof. Has each individual case been proved beyond doubt, not for me anyway. Which is a different question to whether she was actually responsible.

GemmaN17 · 23/06/2023 20:45

Mirabai · 23/06/2023 20:33

the case will come down to the medical evidence

In fact the case comes down to circumstantial evidence. There’s the medical data in each case, which have to be taken separately on their own merits, and some cases are stronger than others. No case has incontrovertible evidence that, if you accept a crime has been committed, that it was indisputably LL. Which is problematic. The general argument is that she was the one around.

If this were a civil case, decided on the balance of probabilities, I’d say we’ve hit that level of proof. Has each individual case been proved beyond doubt, not for me anyway. Which is a different question to whether she was actually responsible.

I asked a while ago but I'm not sure I asked in a enough detail so I'm still confused.

I know jury is allowed to look at all the cases together to come to a verdict, but what does that actually mean?

I agree that as standalone cases they could be disputed but it is the shear amount of circumstantial evidence that tips this for me. Any other plausible argument ceases to exist for me personally.

I'm assuming we will have individual verdicts for each alleged attack?? But for each of these the circumstances surrounding other attacks, similarities etc... can and should be taken into account? Is that right?

MagicClawHasNoChildren · 23/06/2023 21:04

As far as I could gather, the judge was saying that finding LL guilty of one charge meant that the jury could see that guilty verdict almost as supporting evidence to find her guilty on another. As in: we think she poisoned this child with insulin, and there's less evidence for this second charge of insulin poisoning, BUT we think she did it before so we can use that to tip the balance.

I was surprised because that does seem, to me, to be an easy way to ensure that she's found guilty more often than not - regardless of my feelings, that doesn't look like the impartial application of justice. OTOH, it's not unreasonable to think that prior guilt makes current guilt more likely, IYSWIM.

mrsneate · 23/06/2023 21:36

RafaistheKingofClay · 23/06/2023 19:11

And if their opinion is the most likely cause of death is an air embolism and that’s highly unlikely to be accidental or something that could happen by mistake? How does that help the defence?

It is VERY near on impossible for the air embolism to happen by mistake. It's on purpose or because someone isn't doing their job properly

mrsneate · 23/06/2023 21:38

@Mirabai

Again, if some is not aspirating before feeds and pushing, with force that feed into their stomach. They did cause that death, whether is he ok purpose, or through pure laziness and and not really caring. They should not be in the job,

I've watched teeny prems come back from the brink of death after NEC and perforating their bowel, often come to us from other hospitals. It's a horrible illness