Christmas song misogyny taught to kids

[kindnessmatters]

We need to stop the misogyny of words in everyday life, that lets men think that they can do whatever they want against and to women
The words of this christmas song seem to strongly show coercion and rape:
What do you think? How can we prevent such words continuing to be used ?
How can we stop these creepy sickening words be taught to children in schools, churches and community choirs please?
Gabriel’s Message
The angel Gabriel from heaven came,
His wings as drifted snow, his eyes as flame:
"All hail said he, thou lowly maiden Mary,
Most highly favoured lady." Gloria!
"For known a blessed mother thou shalt be,
All generations laud and honour thee;
Thy son shall be Emmanuel, by seers foretold,
Most highly favoured lady." Gloria!
The gentle Mary meekly bowed her head;
"To me be as it pleaseth God," she said.
"My soul shall laud and magnify God’s holy name."
Most highly favoured lady." Gloria!
Of her, Emmanuel, the Christ, was born
In Bethlehem all on a Christmas morn,
And Christian folk through-out the world will ever say:
"Most highly favoured lady." Gloria!
My friend has tried to ask an otherwise-seemingly-good-choir-master (male) not to use them, but has been ignored

theologically speaking, the bit where Mary says "to me be as it pleaseth God" is vitally important. she consented. she could at that point have said no maybe there's an untold story that this was Gabriel's 3rd visit to random houses in Nazareth and the 2 previous young women had said "no thanks"

Gabriel has no sex either way, and the divine godhead first person of the trinity is only referred to as male because patriarchy but can equally be referred to in generally neutral terms. many of the names for God in the bible are actually feminine.

Christianity itself does more harm to women than a niche advent carol and as has been pointed out, she consents. Usually Mary is portrayed as merely a vehicle rather than the active participant she is here so I find it odd that of all the ills perpetuated against women by Christians through the years you consider a sexless mythical being having a chat with a religious women about her religious future the problem.

Ah that's a beautiful song, Basque I believe, based on the ancient Magnificat.

I loved learning this back when I was at school; it's way more tasteful and beautiful than a lot of the shite Christmas songs a lot of folks listen to.

Anyone who's old or mature enough to understand that is old or mature enough to understand context and how things have developed over time.

Baby It's Cold Outside is far creepier.

This

A breif history of misogyny by Jack Holland is worth reading about how Christianity andbspecifically Catholicism firmly entrenched the western world in it's hatred of women. It would probably have you backing away from any religious singing.

Have a look at the words of the Magnificat ie Mary’s reply Luke 1 46-55

My soul glorifies the Lord
and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,
for he has been mindful
of the humble state of his servant.
From now on all generations will call me blessed,
for the Mighty One has done great things for me—
holy is his name.
His mercy extends to those who fear him,
from generation to generation.
He has performed mighty deeds with his arm;
he has scattered those who are proud in their inmost thoughts.
He has brought down rulers from their thrones
but has lifted up the humble.
He has filled the hungry with good things
but has sent the rich away empty.
He has helped his servant Israel,
remembering to be merciful
to Abraham and his descendants forever,
just as he promised our ancestors.”

She very much consents!

Baby It's Cold Outside seems creepy, but actually she's looking for ways to stay a bit longer and recognising that she's expected to be coy, and that people will judge her. It's a dance that many couples carefully negotiated in those days.

@girlmom21 totally agree It's cold outside is a recipe for abuse and shouldn't be played.

We sang this at my DD's primary school carol service. She leaned over and asked 'who's Gloria?'

I don't know whether Mary consented or not in the songs but I'm terms of popular lyrics being misogynistic I think Christmas carols are the least of our worries.

Yeah, there's Mary, meek and compliant and full of love, a blank slate with no needs of her own.
A role model for healthy human females everywhere.
And as it has continued thus for over 2000 years, it worked as motherhood is still full of self sacrifice.

💯💯💯

The consent of Mary was always taught to us through my Catholic education. She could have said no. I've always been clear on that. She had a choice.

I'm far more bothered by the passive and submissive imagery and teaching about womanhood we were taught, and the ideal of remaining virgin as being 'pure'.

From the actual Magnificat, she comes across as rather more than a meek consenting person, and doesn't have much in common with the visions people have had of her, either. I'm surprised it made its way into the canon, to be honest. That is a Mary who would be in the position of that woman leading the Revolution in the French painting. And standing with women in suffragette colours.

Gabriel is an angel and Angels don't have physical needs like humans

As a side note, I am a Muslim and this very same story is related in our book, Quran in the following words - -

We sent to her Our angel, ˹Gabriel,˺ appearing before her as a man, perfectly formed.

She said, "Indeed, I seek refuge in the Most Merciful from you, [so leave me], if you should be fearing of Allah ."

He said, "I am only the messenger of your Lord to give you news of a pure boy."

She wondered, “How can I have a son when no man has ever touched me, nor am I unchaste?”

He replied, “So will it be! Your Lord says, ‘It is easy for Me. And so will We make him a sign for humanity and a mercy from Us.’ It is a matter ˹already˺ decreed.”

(Did anyone else sing ‘most highly flavoured gravy’ in the school carol service?)

I think maintaining a strong RL and contemporary context is the key here. The Christmas Story as a whole requires this so hiding one particular carol is fudging a cultural history. Raise awareness rather than mute stuff.

Mary’s words to Gabriel were “Behold the handmaid of the Lord. Be it unto me according to thy word.”
Quite clearly giving consent.
And no, the incarnation was not misogynistic- quite the reverse. Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit, and born of a woman - no man had any involvement at all!
Also Jesus chose a woman - Mary of Magdala - as the first witness of His resurrection. She became the “apostle to the apostles” - the person to spread the first news of the most earth shattering event in human history.
Whatever mud you want to throw at Jesus, a charge of misogyny is not going to stick.

Mary consented - it’s crystal clear that she did.
She was an incredibly strong woman - she spent every moment aware that her son would die a terrible, humiliating, painful death. And she watched him go through it - know he had to and unable to stop it.
She was the first person Jesus went to after his resurrection.
She holds the highest place in Heaven - Queen of Heaven and Earth.
God gives us free will - to choose. Of course he would give this choice to the mother of his Son.

I think that religion has far more relevant issues to answer re their misogyny and abuse that the words of a song.

Oh god. Is it Baby its Cold Outside o'clock already.

Quite frankly, @kindnessmatters , if you're worried about influences on children, look no further than the thousands of MN posts from mothers bemoaning the fact they've messed up their careers by giving up work, or defaulting to part time, who earn way less than their husbands, whose pensions are shit, who do far more domestic chores, carry far more of the mental load etc etc etc ....

Children learn most by the examples around them. A child in a home with good parental role models who learns that song at school is far less likely to be harmed than a child who doesn't know the song but lives day in day out with shit role models who don't live as equals

This.

The fact that Mary's words of consent were even recorded is staggering for antiquity because in those days the words of women were counted as useless. The first century historian Josephus writes about that in his Antiquities to the Jews; about how women are hysterical creatures, not fit to give testimony - so the fact that Luke records a woman's testimony at all is incredible and a sign of what was to come with the way Jesus viewed and treated women. The Magnificat then went on to cement this - a whole block of text given over to the inner thoughts of a woman, something that was unheard of, and text that speaks of a reversal of power systems at the time - the hungry fed, the humble lifted etc. I'm sorry but there are far worse songs that actually spout misogyny at Christmas - Baby it's cold outside being the biggest contender. Santa Baby isn't all that either.

Mary consented. She made a free choice. Not only that, but she did so as an unmarried woman, thereby ruining, probably, her prospects of marriage. In Exodus, it says that a man who sleeps with an unmarried woman must take her as his wife, or at least pay her father her bride-price. She must have known at the time that pointing upwards and saying 'God did it' probably wasn't going to be taken terribly seriously, and that she was jeopardising her future security - and she did it anyway. She was incredibly brave in a patriarchal society.

Thank you for your understanding. Some here seem to think this is the only issue i care about - as you seem to be able to see - this is just one of thousands of issues, but I see no reason not to address its words and change them or not use the carol - unfortunately the male leader does not want to drop it. I agree the music is lovely - but number of women are not happy inc the choir master's wife, are not happy with such words... especially as the particular choir is supposed to be fun and non-religious!