Christmas song misogyny taught to kids

[kindnessmatters]

We need to stop the misogyny of words in everyday life, that lets men think that they can do whatever they want against and to women
The words of this christmas song seem to strongly show coercion and rape:
What do you think? How can we prevent such words continuing to be used ?
How can we stop these creepy sickening words be taught to children in schools, churches and community choirs please?
Gabriel’s Message
The angel Gabriel from heaven came,
His wings as drifted snow, his eyes as flame:
"All hail said he, thou lowly maiden Mary,
Most highly favoured lady." Gloria!
"For known a blessed mother thou shalt be,
All generations laud and honour thee;
Thy son shall be Emmanuel, by seers foretold,
Most highly favoured lady." Gloria!
The gentle Mary meekly bowed her head;
"To me be as it pleaseth God," she said.
"My soul shall laud and magnify God’s holy name."
Most highly favoured lady." Gloria!
Of her, Emmanuel, the Christ, was born
In Bethlehem all on a Christmas morn,
And Christian folk through-out the world will ever say:
"Most highly favoured lady." Gloria!
My friend has tried to ask an otherwise-seemingly-good-choir-master (male) not to use them, but has been ignored

Agreed - Thank you for your understanding. The particular choir is supposed to be fun and non-religious! Some here seem to think this is the only issue i care about - as you seem to be able to see - this is just one of thousands of issues, but I see no reason not to address its words and change them or not use the carol - unfortunately the male leader does not want to drop it. I agree the music is lovely - but number of women are not happy inc the choir master's wife, are not happy with such words... especially as the particular choir is supposed to be fun and non-religious!

Is “if it pleases god” really consent? She’s not doing it because it pleases her. She’s not putting her needs and wishes first.

I would say that line does not represent consent.

I imagine if you look at the entire musical canon there's probably very little that you can sing which can't be considered offensive in some respect! Music is part of world wide cultural heritages. If you want to find something to froth about in about 95% of songs, particularly sacred music, you could!

Who'd be a choir leader eh? I bet the singing is the easy part; managing the choir members not so much

I loved that Carol as a child-" Most highly flavoured lady..." 🎶 and yes I always wondered who Gloria was? ( misses point of the thread.)

Brought up as a catholic I always thought the whole story about the virgin birth was a bit fishy and an entire religion might have been built on a girl telling her mum she had been visited by an angel who told her she would become pregnant by the Holy Spirit and yes she was still a virgin and no she definitely wasn't seen behind the cow shed with a local carpenter -honest! ( backs away towards the door to avoid the advancing hoards of Christian's with pitchforks!)

Have the 'We should ban Do They Know It's Christmas' threads started yet?

You be hard pushed to find any choir-friendly Christmas songs that don't mention religion, wouldn't you?

The main point of this is not to suggest that women are subservient to men but that humans are subservient to God (albeit she did actually very clearly consent). It's a very basic mainstream doctrine in every religion that God/gods is/are in charge and far superior to ordinary humans. This can't come as a surprise, surely?

Joseph was also expected to support Mary in her pregnancy, knowing exactly what it would look like and what people would think/say. The fact that he did this and didn't just run off suggests that he also consented to what he understood to be God's will.

This.

My ds is 14, he learned that carol in choir but certainly doesn't associate it with anything in the modern world. He can tell the difference between a piece of archaic religious verse and decent modern values.

I’ve literally never heard this Carol before and I highly doubt my children have as well, is it commonly played in schools? Or only religious ones?

A number of women are not happy? No, I suspect it's just you, dear.

@kindnessmatters
I think not wanting to sing this hymn because your choir is meant to be fun and non-religious is probably a different matter completely to analysing a religious text written many years ago .

I certainly don't think you are at all unreasonable in wanting to keep the songs performed by your choir to be lighthearted and secular if that was what it was set out to be .

Don't shoot the messenger, or the messenger's carol. I doubt Gabriel (not male but a seraph, hence sexless) had much say in the matter either. And the carol is one of the most beautiful.

The words of this christmas song seem to strongly show coercion and rape:
What do you think?

Incorrect.

If you want to object to the piece on the grounds that you're a determinedly atheist choir and the piece is a setting of a Christian text, go ahead, but as PP have said you'll be hard pushed to find many Christmas songs without any Christmas or Christian references.

And this text is no more misogynist than Christianity as a whole.

Thank you for also agreeing that there is no evidence of 'consent'. Anyway, what has 'consent' got to do with having sex with someone - it is surely not a transaction with one agreeing/ consenting to something the other wants to do!!! Am I the only one who finds the 'consent' word weird! I really hope that these peeps here are judges...

Is “if it pleases god” really consent? She’s not doing it because it pleases her. She’s not putting her needs and wishes first.

I would say that line does not represent consent.

It may not be explicit from the song itself, but the Magnificat is unambiguously clear that she consented and felt herself to be highly privileged in being chosen to do it. It's not like she sighs and says "Oh, go on, then - if I really must".

I agree that this carol is unsuitable for a lighthearted non-religious choir though. Lobby for Sleigh Ride or Winter Wonderland instead.

'We wish you a merry christmas' (with 'christmas' being a holiday event by pple of all religions and none), Yoko Ono's Snow is falling, there are others

She was 'pure' because she was born without Original Sin unlike the rest of us mortals - The Immaculate Conception

Anyway, what has 'consent' got to do with having sex with someone

She didn't have sex with anybody - at least not until later, after Jesus' birth, when she had married Joseph and had several more children in the natural way.

It was a miracle - that's the whole point of it. Gabriel wasn't just there to function as some kind of angelic pregnancy test to confirm a positive subsequent to her DTD and knowing that it was thus very much a possibility.

I do get what you mean op. I think it was more the
Interesting to read, from a quick Google, the what we sing now is the 18th century paraphrased version of 13th century Latin.
I suppose its of the times. Words like meak and lowly would have been more about her being a peasant, and the juxtaposition of a young peasant female, right at the bottom of the social food chain, bearing the I suppose highest man.
My family is RC, and we have lots of talks about the church's historical use of religion to manipulate and control.

I completely understand that, if it's billed as a non-religious choir, you would expect them to only sing pop/secular traditional songs; but I really don't see where you get misogyny from this song and the obvious context of it.

But Mary didn't consent to sex. She consented to bear the Messiah, whom Isaiah foretold would be born of a virgin - hence her saying 'But how am I going to have a baby if I've never had sex?'.

Unless you think Gabriel was like a teenage wingman (heh) for God, who was hiding outside the door until G gave him the nod?

'Uh. My mate, right, thinks you're well righteous and wants to know if you want to, you know... get to know each other biblically?'

'Who's your mate? Do I know him?'

'God.'

'Oh, him. Yeah, go on, then.'

'OI! BIG MAN! YOU'RE IN!'

And then God appears from where he was lurking at the door and he and Mary get (in)carn(ation)al.

But that would be quite a big departure from everything that was written in the Bible, so...

This is fascinating, I never knew this!

Thanks for understanding and the song suggestions - though this man is clear that only he makes the decisions. . .! Sad as he is otherwise a brilliant and fun leader - - on his terms...

Who on earth are you thanking for agreeing with you?.

Most people have pointed out that Mary clearly accepts the offer of impregnation (enthusiastically so in the Magnificat). She's not raped, she doesn't have sex, nothing enters her vagina.

The word "Consent" in the context of rape law is a whole other thread, and a very deep one at that.