Page 25 | Films you see differently as an adult...

LoveShitJokes · 2022-11-19T18:45:39+00:00

I presume this has been done before but fuck it, it's Saturday night and I'm bored. So I'll start... Mrs Doubtfire. As a child I saw Miranda as a boring, stuck up cow. As an adult I see her as a successful, independent woman exasperated with her man child husband who gives me The Ultimate Ick. And then some. I'm gobsmacked she ever married him. Stuart was a capable, equal partner not the villain I once thought him to be. Anyone else?

GertrudePerkinsPaperyThing · 24/11/2022 09:07

EineReiseDurchDieZeit · 19/11/2022 19:51

The bit that gets me now is her Dad having to give Penny an abortion. He literally broke the law for them and could have lost his medical licence.

Show quote history

I see this differently to you as an adult.

When I watched again this was why I admired the dad - because he was a dr he was able to come in and safe Penny’s life after the guy has botched the abortion.

Made me realise the Dad is really the good guy - he apologises for misjudging the situation as to who was the father too

Emotionalsupportviper · 24/11/2022 09:18

MarieIVanArkleStinks · 23/11/2022 18:51

I'm interested in all the points about Jane Eyre! There's a famous piece of early feminist literary criticism by Gilbert and Gubar, entitled 'Plain Jane's Progress', in which Jane and Bertha are read as elements of the Freudian 'iceberg' theory: Jane being the superego and intent on living by the laws set down by society and God; Bertha being the untamed libido, or 'id'. They get very symbolic about all this, viewing Bertha's tearing of Jane's wedding veil as a symbolic loss of virginity, and in acting out the desires Jane would really like to act out herself.

Which is all very well, until we see from the text that Jane herself is an impassioned soul, and that this passion gets her into trouble many times in childhood. After the abortive wedding when Rochester turns the full power of his sexuality and passion on her to make her stay Jane wavers: she wants to accept being him on the terms he suggests, despite his attempts to deceive her: she's by no means turned off him.

It's Rochester himself who has pretty inhibited attitudes to female sexuality, despite his travelling around the continent bedding every mistress he could get. Celine Varens was too sexy, and too promiscuous, which disgusts him even though so was he. He later abhors the time he spent with his mistresses, which is the one thing sealing Jane's resolve not to follow in their footsteps and end up being an object of disgust to him. Rochester seems to be employing a peculiar form of cognitive dissonance: he wants, and is repeatedly attracted to, passionate, sexual women with a free-spirited, physically voracious appetite for sex, and by the same token he's disgusted by them and having had his satisfaction, they leave him cold. Jane's suspicions are right: when she meets him near the end of the novel he tells her 'I would have sullied my innocent flower' (ugh, UGH!) had events transpired the way he wanted them to at first, before the death of Bertha.

Du Maurier's Rebecca is pretty much a duplicate of this narrative, but here the husband is overtly disgusted by his wife's sexuality. I also love Wide Sargasso Sea and I love Jean Rhys, but Rhys is a very different type of author to Bronte, and the world she wrote in was one of unprecedented change for women.

I personally prefer Vilette, but Jane Eyre is an incredibly powerful novel, even the number of huge coincidences in the end challenged my suspension of disbelief.

Thank you so much for this - and to everyone who's remarked on this topic.

the comments on Jane Eyre have been fascinating - certainly never came up in my 'O' Level English . . .

I'll have to try to get hold of the Gilbert and Gubar commentary.

I wonder how much of the symbolism the authors of works like Jane Eyre were aware of, and how much was unconscious? We rarely see our own motivations.

astronewt · 24/11/2022 09:19

Good old Gilbert and Gubar! The Madwoman in the Attic must be one of the most cited works in all of lit crit.

LydiaBennetsUglyBonnet · 24/11/2022 09:27

ToGanymedeAndTitan · 22/11/2022 15:03

Complained to the cinema about Back To The Future 😂
Great Scott, could you be more heavy?! 😁
I've watched it so many times I've lost count and the bit with Lorraine and Biff in the car definitely went over my head at that age, like others have said it did with them too

Because they advertised it as child friendly viewing, pardon me for not thinking attempted rape is suitable for kids

Rummikub · 24/11/2022 09:34

Emotionalsupportviper · 24/11/2022 09:18

Thank you so much for this - and to everyone who's remarked on this topic.

the comments on Jane Eyre have been fascinating - certainly never came up in my 'O' Level English . . .

I'll have to try to get hold of the Gilbert and Gubar commentary.

I wonder how much of the symbolism the authors of works like Jane Eyre were aware of, and how much was unconscious? We rarely see our own motivations.

Show quote history

I’m going to have to revisit jane eyre as I don’t recall any of this. I found it so boring that I fell asleep the night before my O level reading it!

peaceandove · 24/11/2022 09:49

I wonder how much of the symbolism the authors of works like Jane Eyre were aware of, and how much was unconscious? We rarely see our own motivations.

The problem with literary criticism is that once you get to degree level any student worth their salt could present a convincing symbolic interpretation of Jane Eyre, or a feminist one, or a psycho-analytical one, even a Marxist one.....By the end of my degree I just felt I was citing clever words for clever word's sake.

caroleanboneparte · 24/11/2022 10:00

Blue Lagoon

At least with the rest of these it isn't real.

What the producers did to Brooke Shields was horrific!

There's a 1983 Rob Lowe/Andrew McCarthy/ Jaqueline Bissett film called Class that's quite problematic. AM has an affair with RL's Mum and it's through such a male gaze. She does t do anything wrong but is painted (again) as the crazy sexual woman.

Icedlatteplease · 24/11/2022 10:21

peaceandove · 24/11/2022 09:49

I wonder how much of the symbolism the authors of works like Jane Eyre were aware of, and how much was unconscious? We rarely see our own motivations.

The problem with literary criticism is that once you get to degree level any student worth their salt could present a convincing symbolic interpretation of Jane Eyre, or a feminist one, or a psycho-analytical one, even a Marxist one.....By the end of my degree I just felt I was citing clever words for clever word's sake.

Yes this!!! And so much worse on 19th century texts. Might be why I spent a disproportionate amount of time studying anything earlier than Shakespeare. Got utterly fed up with lecturers talking crap about some of my favourite books.

angharadsgoat · 24/11/2022 10:58

The problem with literary criticism is that once you get to degree level any student worth their salt could present a convincing symbolic interpretation of Jane Eyre, or a feminist one, or a psycho-analytical one, even a Marxist one.....By the end of my degree I just felt I was citing clever words for clever word's sake.

Yes agree. Sometimes I found it a pointless, if interesting, exercise.

And Gilbert and Gubar was interesting (though quite racist, etc, looking back). But I think some of the themes were already touched upon by Charlotte herself.

caroleanboneparte · 24/11/2022 11:11

Yes to the full monty. He's such a dick for not taking the factory job.

Emotionalsupportviper · 24/11/2022 11:29

peaceandove · 24/11/2022 09:49

I wonder how much of the symbolism the authors of works like Jane Eyre were aware of, and how much was unconscious? We rarely see our own motivations.

The problem with literary criticism is that once you get to degree level any student worth their salt could present a convincing symbolic interpretation of Jane Eyre, or a feminist one, or a psycho-analytical one, even a Marxist one.....By the end of my degree I just felt I was citing clever words for clever word's sake.

And I suppose that in the same way authors can write themselves and their deepest, darkest feelings into their novels without being aware of it, critics will see themselves and their deepest, darkest feelings without having a clue that they are reading something that's not there.

Yer pays yer money and yer takes yer choice . . .

janaus2000 · 24/11/2022 11:48

Drop Dead Fred

MarieIVanArkleStinks · 24/11/2022 11:50

Yes. Gilbert and Gubar have been done to death, and many of their readings are pretty whimsical to start with, but entertaining nonetheless. There's some real bunkum in literary criticism - not all of it as old as G&G - that I roll my eyes over, and the literary critics are the lecturers in the main so it's no surprise some people have had the same university experience!

@peaceandove I agree with what you say about the varying interpretations. That's what a good literature degree should do: sharpen up your criticality, show how a good case for something can be made just as much as a poor case, how to play devil's advocate in some senses: these are all invaluable, transferable skills that would stand anyone in good stead in later life. They are why literature graduates used to be sought after.

Compare with these days, when lecturers despair over having to spoon-feed their students who seem to have lost the capacity for the kind of critical thinking you describe. These days universities are being pushed by the QAA into 'decolonizing the curriculum' even as it applies to pure maths (how the hell?), every module has to relate to employability in some way, and literature degrees are losing subject-specific content in favour of a range of tediously boring 'study skills' (I had to learn these for myself). Critical debate and robust discussion has given way to churning out the party line, 'trigger warnings' appear on everything (yes, even Jane Eyre), and lecturers who commit thoughtcrime and actually dare risk saying 'Down With Big Brother' risk being reported by their students and/or fired.

Your post actually made me quite nostalgic for the days of the real literature degree.

peaceandove · 24/11/2022 12:04

MarieIVanArkleStinks · 24/11/2022 11:50

Yes. Gilbert and Gubar have been done to death, and many of their readings are pretty whimsical to start with, but entertaining nonetheless. There's some real bunkum in literary criticism - not all of it as old as G&G - that I roll my eyes over, and the literary critics are the lecturers in the main so it's no surprise some people have had the same university experience!

@peaceandove I agree with what you say about the varying interpretations. That's what a good literature degree should do: sharpen up your criticality, show how a good case for something can be made just as much as a poor case, how to play devil's advocate in some senses: these are all invaluable, transferable skills that would stand anyone in good stead in later life. They are why literature graduates used to be sought after.

Compare with these days, when lecturers despair over having to spoon-feed their students who seem to have lost the capacity for the kind of critical thinking you describe. These days universities are being pushed by the QAA into 'decolonizing the curriculum' even as it applies to pure maths (how the hell?), every module has to relate to employability in some way, and literature degrees are losing subject-specific content in favour of a range of tediously boring 'study skills' (I had to learn these for myself). Critical debate and robust discussion has given way to churning out the party line, 'trigger warnings' appear on everything (yes, even Jane Eyre), and lecturers who commit thoughtcrime and actually dare risk saying 'Down With Big Brother' risk being reported by their students and/or fired.

Your post actually made me quite nostalgic for the days of the real literature degree.

Agree with every word of this. It's 30 years since I did my degree but it feels more like 100 years ago, sometimes.

ProtectorExtraordinaryOfTheCantonsOfNim · 24/11/2022 14:39

Savvet · 19/11/2022 20:19

Definitely Grease. Danny treats Sandy appallingly and the happy ending is that she changes everything about herself to please him. Oh and Rizzo sings a song about how the worst thing you can do is flirt with a man then not give him sex 🙄

Technically she says that the worst thing she could do would be to cry in front of her classmates.

Flirting without "seeing it through" is on the list of things she reckons are worse than "going with a boy or two", though. These seem to be arranged in ascending order of badness, building up to the ultimate "worst thing":

Flirting but not "seeing it through" 🙄
Take cold showers and throw her life away waiting for Mr Right
Hurting other people out of spite or jealousy
Crying in front of other people

I'm not sure that song is too much of an issue because we're never told that Rizzo is RIGHT. She's singing about how she feels, and based on everything that we learn about her it's accurate about that; it is the philosophy by which she's conducted her relationships. She's not the central character, so the show doesn't need to pop up with commentary like a particularly persistent essay-setter ("To what extent do you think Rizzo is correct in her opinions? Use evidence from the text to suggest how she may have arrived at them and discuss how they could be reframed").

I think it pales into insignificance compared with the central storyline. The whole thing is problematic, but then that's hardly surprising of a 50-year-old musical about the sexual attitudes of a generation beforehand.

peaceandove · 24/11/2022 14:47

I think when Rizzo sings 'The worst thing I can do is to cry in front of you' she's actually meaning Kenicke. They had a fling, she really fell for him but then split up - and she's too proud to let him know how much he hurt her.

The rest of her song is basically how she refuses to be a prick tease because she thinks it's unfair behaviour.

ProtectorExtraordinaryOfTheCantonsOfNim · 24/11/2022 15:20

In the film the song comes after, and is seemingly inspired by, encountering Patty Simcox gossiping about her with other girls and I've always taken it that the "you" of the song is the gossipmongers. But it's been so long since I've seen a stage production that I don't recall how it goes there.

But yes - it's "don't prick-tease, don't suppress your own sexuality for the sake of appearances, don't slut-shame other people, and never let the bastards know they're getting to you." The first of those is highly problematic but bang-on for the period and the character, but she's not far off on the others.

FKATondelayo · 24/11/2022 16:13

ProtectorExtraordinaryOfTheCantonsOfNim · 24/11/2022 14:39

Technically she says that the worst thing she could do would be to cry in front of her classmates.

Flirting without "seeing it through" is on the list of things she reckons are worse than "going with a boy or two", though. These seem to be arranged in ascending order of badness, building up to the ultimate "worst thing":

Flirting but not "seeing it through" 🙄
Take cold showers and throw her life away waiting for Mr Right
Hurting other people out of spite or jealousy
Crying in front of other people

I'm not sure that song is too much of an issue because we're never told that Rizzo is RIGHT. She's singing about how she feels, and based on everything that we learn about her it's accurate about that; it is the philosophy by which she's conducted her relationships. She's not the central character, so the show doesn't need to pop up with commentary like a particularly persistent essay-setter ("To what extent do you think Rizzo is correct in her opinions? Use evidence from the text to suggest how she may have arrived at them and discuss how they could be reframed").

I think it pales into insignificance compared with the central storyline. The whole thing is problematic, but then that's hardly surprising of a 50-year-old musical about the sexual attitudes of a generation beforehand.

Show quote history

You win the thread. Brava.

marktayloruk · 24/11/2022 20:13

In these days of cisgenderand other PC rubbish

marktayloruk · 24/11/2022 20:16

Grease showed the world as it ought to be. Rizzo didn't do anything wrong

Iamtheonwandlonely · 25/11/2022 05:55

Dirty Dancing,surely the villain is Robbie the man who got Penny pregnant and was sleeping with Baby's sister.

And surely the point of some films is to bring the seedier side of life out.
Not everything is sunshine and roses.

Lampzade · 25/11/2022 11:21

This thread has been great. Really eye opening
MN at its best

Lampzade · 25/11/2022 11:27

MarieIVanArkleStinks · 24/11/2022 11:50

Yes. Gilbert and Gubar have been done to death, and many of their readings are pretty whimsical to start with, but entertaining nonetheless. There's some real bunkum in literary criticism - not all of it as old as G&G - that I roll my eyes over, and the literary critics are the lecturers in the main so it's no surprise some people have had the same university experience!

@peaceandove I agree with what you say about the varying interpretations. That's what a good literature degree should do: sharpen up your criticality, show how a good case for something can be made just as much as a poor case, how to play devil's advocate in some senses: these are all invaluable, transferable skills that would stand anyone in good stead in later life. They are why literature graduates used to be sought after.

Compare with these days, when lecturers despair over having to spoon-feed their students who seem to have lost the capacity for the kind of critical thinking you describe. These days universities are being pushed by the QAA into 'decolonizing the curriculum' even as it applies to pure maths (how the hell?), every module has to relate to employability in some way, and literature degrees are losing subject-specific content in favour of a range of tediously boring 'study skills' (I had to learn these for myself). Critical debate and robust discussion has given way to churning out the party line, 'trigger warnings' appear on everything (yes, even Jane Eyre), and lecturers who commit thoughtcrime and actually dare risk saying 'Down With Big Brother' risk being reported by their students and/or fired.

Your post actually made me quite nostalgic for the days of the real literature degree.

Totally agree

whynotwhatknot · 25/11/2022 16:56

LydiaBennetsUglyBonnet · 24/11/2022 09:27

Because they advertised it as child friendly viewing, pardon me for not thinking attempted rape is suitable for kids

Show quote history

its rated pg complain the board that chose the rating not the cinema

ilovesushi · 25/11/2022 17:35

I loved Grease as a child. Loved it as a teenage. Loved it through my 20s, 30s and 40s. Sure I will continue to love it. Could always see the grit in it. That with the amazing amazing performances and music is what elevates it above squeaky clean films like High School Musical.