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Ukraine Invasion: Part 35

989 replies

MagicFox · 12/11/2022 16:40

We're still here, on 35 🇺🇦

OP posts:
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86
DesdamonasHandkerchief · 17/11/2022 21:10

Article:
The Case Against Negotiations with Russia

https://www.criticalthreats.org/analysis/the-case-against-negotiations-with-russia

ScrollingLeaves · 17/11/2022 21:28

DesdamonasHandkerchief · Today 21:10
Article:
The Case Against Negotiations with Russia

www.criticalthreats.org/analysis/the-case-against-negotiations-with-russia

Thank you, Desddmona, I think that article is accurate and full of insight.

blueshoes · 17/11/2022 22:20

DesdamonasHandkerchief · 17/11/2022 21:10

This.

I did not realise the economic significance of these regions:

"... Putin’s forces still occupy strategically vital areas even after Ukraine‘s successes in western Kherson. [Russia] still controls the vital hub of Melitopol, a city that sits astride essential lines of communication from Russia in the east to the lower Dnipro River in the west and from Ukrainian-held Zaporizhia Oblast to the north to Crimea in the south. If Russia retains Melitopol it will build it into a massive forward base from which to launch future invasions to take the critical Ukrainian cities of Zaporizhia and Dnipro and possibly to cross the Dnipro itself once again to put all Ukraine at risk.

The current lines leave almost the entirety of Ukraine’s mineral extraction and processing industries in Russian hands. Those industries, concentrated in the east around Donetsk and Luhansk cities with vital transportation and processing links through Mariupol, comprised a sizable part of the pre-2014 Ukrainian economy.

Giving them to Russia risks making Ukraine a permanent economic basket case dependent on the international community for long-term aid. These are not just miscellaneous Ukrainian territories somewhere in the east. They are areas Ukraine must regain to survive as an independent state facing the constant threat of renewed Russian aggression."

Booklover3 · 17/11/2022 22:58

It’s this bit @ScrollingLeaves that you posted which made me pause:

^It comes after US intelligence sources said that it was a Ukrainian, and not a Russian missile as initially feared, that crashed into the field.*

(I can’t work out how to embolden or use italics).

Why US intelligence and not Polish? It makes me a bit apprehensive after the smarmy thanks Russia gave the U.S if I’m honest.

BUT:

I am glad to hear that they’ve let the Ukrainians in to investigate. One would assume that means there’s nothing to hide and it definitely was Ukrainian.

MissConductUS · 17/11/2022 23:28

Why US intelligence and not Polish? It makes me a bit apprehensive after the smarmy thanks Russia gave the U.S if I’m honest.

I can hazard a guess. The US has an immense amount of radar and signals intelligence collecting capability in the area. It wouldn't surprise me if an AWACS aircraft in the area tracked the whole incident on radar. This type of intelligence wouldn't be directly available to the Polish authorities.

ScrollingLeaves · 17/11/2022 23:39

MissConductUS · Today 23:28

Why US intelligence and not Polish? It makes me a bit apprehensive after the smarmy thanks Russia gave the U.S if I’m honest

I can hazard a guess. The US has an immense amount of radar and signals intelligence collecting capability in the area. It wouldn't surprise me if an AWACS aircraft in the area tracked the whole incident on radar. This type of intelligence wouldn't be directly available to the Polish authorities

That would make sense. MissConduct.

On anothe though related point, do you happen to know from which direction the incoming Russian missile or drone was coming on its course to (most probably) Lviv? The one the Ukrainians were trying to intercept when they accidentally missed and reached the very nearby Polish farm instead?

Booklover3 · 18/11/2022 00:42

MissConductUS · 17/11/2022 23:28

Why US intelligence and not Polish? It makes me a bit apprehensive after the smarmy thanks Russia gave the U.S if I’m honest.

I can hazard a guess. The US has an immense amount of radar and signals intelligence collecting capability in the area. It wouldn't surprise me if an AWACS aircraft in the area tracked the whole incident on radar. This type of intelligence wouldn't be directly available to the Polish authorities.

Thank you! I do appreciate it. My minds more at ease now in regards to that.

MissConductUS · 18/11/2022 00:52

On anothe though related point, do you happen to know from which direction the incoming Russian missile or drone was coming on its course to (most probably) Lviv? The one the Ukrainians were trying to intercept when they accidentally missed and reached the very nearby Polish farm instead?

Unfortunately, I've no idea. That type of information is unlikely to be released publicly, as we'd want to keep the Russians guessing how accurately we can track their missiles.

Thank you! I do appreciate it. My minds more at ease now in regards to that.

You are certainly most welcome, @Booklover3 . I'm so glad I could ease your mind a bit. I think the Russians were genuinely relieved that NATO didn't use the incident as an excuse to join the ass kicking they're getting enter the conflict. 😁

notimagain · 18/11/2022 06:52

do you happen to know from which direction the incoming Russian missile or drone was coming on its course to (most probably) Lviv? The one the Ukrainians were trying to intercept when they accidentally missed and reached the very nearby Polish farm instead?

Even if we knew that it might not be that relevant to where the SAM (if that's what it turns out to be) ended up.

On the rare'ish occasions these things fail in a really major way the direction of it's entire flight can end up being totally random...not simply a case of "ooops, we missed, now where is it going to go"? more a case off: "but it was meant to head off in that direction"

Here's a link to a video of particularly spectacular example of what can happen in extremis from early on in the conflict:

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 18/11/2022 08:18

ISW Key Takeaways

Russian forces conducted another massive wave of missile strikes across Ukraine on November 17

Russian forces in eastern Kherson Oblast are likely partially vulnerable to a Ukrainian interdiction campaign such as the one Ukrainian forces successfully exploited to retake western Kherson Oblast.

Russian President Vladimir Putin signed a decree changing the composition of the Russian Presidential Council for Civil Society and Human Rights (HRC) on November 17.

Russian sources continued to claim that Ukrainian troops are conducting counteroffensive operations along the Svatove-Kreminna line.

Russian forces continued ground attacks around Bakhmut, Avdiivka, and southwest of Donetsk City.

Ukrainian troops continued targeting Russian military assets and concentration areas on the east bank of Kherson Oblast and in the rear areas of Zaporizhia Oblast on November 17.

Russian authorities continue to face discontented mobilized personnel and low morale on the front lines.

Russian occupation officials continued to destroy Ukrainian culture in Russian-occupied territories.

+++

⚡️Kuleba: Ukrainian experts arrive in Poland (kyivindependent.com/news-feed/kuleba-ukrainian-experts-arrive-in-poland-to-investigate-missile-blast-site) to investigate missile blast site.
“Ukraine and Poland will cooperate constructively and openly on the incident caused by Russian missile terror against Ukraine. Our experts are already in Poland,” Foreign Minister Dmytro Kuleba said.

⚡️Ombudsman says he’s ‘shocked’ by scale of torture (kyivindependent.com/news-feed/ombudsman-says-hes-shoked-by-scale-of-torture-russian-forces-inflicted-on-kherson-residents) Russian forces inflicted on Kherson residents.
“I haven’t seen such a scale of (human rights violations) before. And I personally visited all (Russian) torture chambers in different Ukrainian oblasts,” Dmytro Lubinets said. “It seems that (the Russian military) get some satisfaction from it when they kill and torture our citizens.”

⚡️IAEA board again demands Russians to withdraw from Ukraine's nuclear facilities.
The International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) passed its third resolution since the start of Russia's invasion of Ukraine, calling on Moscow to "end all actions at Ukrainian nuclear facilities," Reuters reported.

❗️ No traces of the manufacture of a "dirty bomb" were found in Ukraine – IAEA resolution

⚡️European Parliament to vote on a resolution marking Russia as state sponsor of terrorism.
“After four hours of negotiations between the political groups of the EP (European Parliament), the agreement on the text was achieved,” Andrius Kubilius, European Parliament member, said on Nov. 15.

⚡️Zelensky: Over 10 million Ukrainians remain without electricity as of evening of Nov. 17

General Staff: Ukraine repels Russian advances near 9 settlements in east.

❤️‍🩹 Lviv surgeons performed a successful heart operation in the absence of electricity

Israel has spent millions of dollars in military support for Ukraine at the request of Biden, – Haaretz
Aid will be channeled through NATO countries. Includes a large arsenal of tools, devices, and other "strategic equipment".
🇮🇱 Under pressure from the US administration, Israel recently agreed to finance the purchase of millions of dollars worth of "strategic materials" for Ukraine - Haaretz

The Swedish parliament approved the provision of military assistance to Ukraine for a record amount of $287 million.

Hungary announced the development of economic partnership with Iran - Hungarian Foreign Minister Péter Szijjártó

Australian billionaire Andrew Forrest has created an investment fund to support Ukraine and allocated $500 million.

Reuters: The European Commission is preparing to unblock up to 14.7 billion euros in funding for Hungary that has been frozen due to unresolved problems with the rule of law and the judiciary.

www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-63637625
Igor Girkin, the military leader of the so-called Donetsk People's Republic, was convicted of deploying the missile and seeking Russian help
Sergei Dubinsky was found to have ordered and overseen the transport of the Buk missile launcher
Leonid Kharchenko was found to have overseen the Buk, acting on Dubinsky's instructions.

Ukraine Invasion: Part 35
Ukraine Invasion: Part 35
Ukraine Invasion: Part 35
Saisong · 18/11/2022 08:42

Just read this thoughtful report on the BBC website, about the heartbreaking task of recovering bodies from the battlefield. I really feel for the so young men doing this important work.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-63627345

Igotjelly · 18/11/2022 09:56

Sky News reporting that a Russian soldier, part of the 64th Separate Guards Motor Rifle Brigade, has said that he is prepared to testify in an international criminal court. He fled to Spain after leaving his regiment when he witnessed war crimes.

Whatever his motives, and I'm sure they aren't entirely altruistic, they will need many more like him.

ScrollingLeaves · 18/11/2022 10:57

Saisong · Today 08:42
Just read this thoughtful report on the BBC website, about the heartbreaking task of recovering bodies from the battlefield. I really feel for the so young men doing this important work.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-63627345

It is a thoughtful report, thank you, Saisong.

It is important work, as you say. They are holding the spirits of the dead in their hands and heart on behalf of everyone. No matter whether this is taken literally or metaphorically.
"We feel grace that the body will finally return from the war," he says.

ScrollingLeaves · 18/11/2022 11:04

notimagain· Today 06:52

“do you happen to know from which direction the incoming Russian missile or drone was coming on its course to (most probably) Lviv? The one the Ukrainians were trying to intercept when they accidentally missed and reached the very nearby Polish farm instead?”

Even if we knew that it might not be that relevant to where the SAM (if that's what it turns out to be) ended up.

On the rare'ish occasions these things fail in a really major way the direction of it's entire flight can end up being totally random...not simply a case of "ooops, we missed, now where is it going to go"? more a case off: "but it was meant to head off in that direction"

*Here's a link to a video of particularly spectacular example of what can happen in extremis from early on in the conflict:+

(video link)

Thank you, notiamagaon, that is fascinating to know, and to also see, in the video.

Igotjelly · 18/11/2022 11:25

Ministers of the APEC have issued a joint statement condemning the war in Ukraine (whilst acknowledging that there are other views and alternative assessments of the situation) - APEC has 21 members including China, the USA and Russia.

Naem · 18/11/2022 11:58

Times of Israel is reporting astonishing scenes from Iran - www.timesofisrael.com/iranians-seen-setting-fire-to-ancestral-home-of-islamic-republic-founder-khomeini/

Not directly relevant to this thread, but of course it is.

Igotjelly · 18/11/2022 13:09

Unrelated but not. Twitter seems to be taking its dying breaths, where on earth will we find info?

DesdamonasHandkerchief · 18/11/2022 13:21

I've only just got into Twitter because of this conflict. I didn't really see the point of it before then.
On the plus side if it is on its last legs it will stop me spending far too many hours doom scrolling! Anyway surely something (or someone other than Musk) will rise up to take it over or start a new variation, it's such an important source of news.

DesdamonasHandkerchief · 18/11/2022 13:25

Naem · 18/11/2022 11:58

Times of Israel is reporting astonishing scenes from Iran - www.timesofisrael.com/iranians-seen-setting-fire-to-ancestral-home-of-islamic-republic-founder-khomeini/

Not directly relevant to this thread, but of course it is.

I think this is very important to the Ukrainian conflict, if Iran's dictatorship falls then so does an important source of arms and equipment to Russia.

As I've said before this might have been the sort of uprising that Putin would have helped to quell if he wasn't somewhat tied up elsewhere.

More power to the protestors elbows I wish the West could arm them to bring the regime down once and for all but I think we've had our fingers burnt too many times to get involved.

DesdamonasHandkerchief · 18/11/2022 13:47

One of the shot down Russian missiles was a X-55 with a blank warhead. X-55 are usually delivery systems for nuclear warheads. Unit price of the missile is 13 Million USD.

One of the reasons why Russians are so adamantly against Western missiles shields.

twitter.com/tendar/status/1593519581301276679?s=46&t=qoSooD20ledFa4Lw6LcMSg

Some commentators saying they fired this $13m missile because they're running out of conventional missiles. More alarmist saying it's a practice run:

twitter.com/officejjsmart/status/1593569974022508545?s=46&t=qoSooD20ledFa4Lw6LcMSg

Igotjelly · 18/11/2022 13:59

DesdamonasHandkerchief · 18/11/2022 13:47

One of the shot down Russian missiles was a X-55 with a blank warhead. X-55 are usually delivery systems for nuclear warheads. Unit price of the missile is 13 Million USD.

One of the reasons why Russians are so adamantly against Western missiles shields.

twitter.com/tendar/status/1593519581301276679?s=46&t=qoSooD20ledFa4Lw6LcMSg

Some commentators saying they fired this $13m missile because they're running out of conventional missiles. More alarmist saying it's a practice run:

twitter.com/officejjsmart/status/1593569974022508545?s=46&t=qoSooD20ledFa4Lw6LcMSg

My sense is that its probably the former reason.

MissConductUS · 18/11/2022 13:59

The Russians don't like HIMARS, not one little bit.

twitter.com/wartranslated/status/1593573406829678593

notimagain · 18/11/2022 15:11

Igotjelly · 18/11/2022 13:59

My sense is that its probably the former reason.

Agreed.

X-55, KH-55 and sub-variants have been used in the conflict before so there's no need for a practice run of anything.

Bit odd firing it inert, maybe done for it's kinetic effect, maybe to force the Ukrainians to expend a few more SAMS, and/or to trigger the alarmist response.

Igotjelly · 18/11/2022 15:14

notimagain · 18/11/2022 15:11

Agreed.

X-55, KH-55 and sub-variants have been used in the conflict before so there's no need for a practice run of anything.

Bit odd firing it inert, maybe done for it's kinetic effect, maybe to force the Ukrainians to expend a few more SAMS, and/or to trigger the alarmist response.

Could it be pure ineptitude?

DesdamonasHandkerchief · 18/11/2022 15:22

Day 267, November 17th. Summary of #Arestovych and #Feygin daily broadcast
Posted on 18 November 2022

🔥Battlefield update:

🔥Kherson
Ukrainian artillery hit multiple Russian military targets – successful destruction of Russian command posts, warehouses and military camps.

🔥Huliaipole
6 Russian brigades attempted to attack Huliaipole, Zaporizhzhia region. They were stopped and failed. Maybe this was an attempt to test Ukrainian defenses.

🔥Vuhledar
Local tactical clashes between Ukrainian and Russian troops. Both sides sustain losses, with Russian troops losing more soldiers.

🔥Mariinka
Tactical movements and local clashes without any significant changes of the frontline.

🔥Bilogirovka-Svatove
Minor tactical movements, no substantial changes to the frontline.

🔥Russia targeting Ukrainian civilians & critical infrastructure
Russia continues to target Ukrainian critical infrastructure, such as the electric grid and power distribution centers, and residential buildings.
Russia launched 16 missiles and a number of Iranian drones, the majority was intercepted and only about 2-3 hit their targets, resulting in several dead and injured in Dnipro and Zaporizhzhia city. This is the Russian strategy to try to pressure Ukraine into negotiations.

🔥Poland
Ukrainian Foreign Minister, Kuleba, and other Ukrainian representatives arrived in Poland and will have access to the Polish investigation. While not just Ukraine but also Belarus and Russia have S300 complexes, every missile is cataloged and can be eventually traced to its owner.
For now, Poland and the US suggest that this was probably a Ukrainian S300 missile that was set to intercept a Russian missile launched against Ukraine. Yet the key question is “Where is the Russian missile or what remains of it?”. The intrigue is: Was the Russian missile launched against Poland and not Ukraine? For now, the West seems to not escalate the situation or to escalate in the way that Russia wanted (e.g. provoking NATO into war).
Yet, the mystery of the second missile can be solved at an opportune moment or Ukraine can be given all that they need to deal with the Russian menace.

🔥Russia´s friends pushing for negotiations
Russian appeasers and Russian-friendly politicians in the West, such as Berlusconi, are pushing for negotiations with Russia. In reality, Ukraine will not agree to negotiations on Russian terms, as Ukrainians are overwhelmingly pro-liberation of all Ukrainian territory from the Russian invaders.
Ukrainian victory is part of the Western security strategy and the basis of the new security system in Europe. Moreover, any attempt to pressure Ukraine into negotiations by, for example, decreasing military aid to Ukraine, will result in political and popular discontent in the West as it “puts the Free World in danger”.
Ukraine has clearly stated the conditions for the negotiations – firstly, Russia must remove all Russian troops from all Ukrainian territories.
Meanwhile, as we can see from the West´s actions and the recent Ramstein meeting, the military aid to Ukraine continues.

🔥MH17 & Hague trial
The International Criminal Court at the Hague declared 3 out of the 4 accused guilty of shooting down MH17 and murdering 298 people, including Girkin (Strelkov) who got a life sentence. Russia is at fault here.
This is another sign that the West doesn´t want to escalate the conflict as the main responsible for the MH17 downing is missing from the list of accused. Indeed, Putin is the only person who can order the Russian Ministry of Defense to release the Russian BUK system, the border guards, and the FSB (two other institutions) to let it cross the Russian border. Thus, Putin is ultimately the main responsible for the death of 298 people on MH17.

🔥The Western Strategy & Ukrainian resolve
The West is not escalating the conflict & to control the course of the war, trying to contain it to Ukraine, sending weapons to Ukraine, signaling to Putin that he cannot cross some red lines (e.g. use nuclear weapons) and suffocating Russia with sanctions, but not removing Putin from power.
Meanwhile, Ukraine is paying for this more cautious, non-escalation strategy with blood, destroyed livelihoods and Ukrainian kids murdered by Russian missiles. For example, in the recently liberated Kherson there are more Russian torture rooms and mass graves being uncovered after the liberation.
Ukraine has already liberated 55% of the territory that Russia occupied after the 24th of February. Ukraine will not stop resisting and will fight until the last Russian invader is gone from the Ukrainian land.

🔥Russian populace limit
The increasing number of Russian military losses, sanctions against Russia and crackdown on civil and economic liberties in Russia will sooner or later reach the critical limit and lead to an implosion in Russia.
Arestovych predicts that the serious internal problems in Russia will start in February-March 2023.

[With regard to this last point there's a lot of rumours on Twitter suggesting that full mobilisation will begin in Russia in January 2023, given the problems with equipping and feeding the current mobiks I find this difficult to believe, and surely it would be the last straw for the Russian people?]

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