How the upper middle class live

[LisaJool]

Apologies for yet another class thread but I find this fascinating. Off the back of a thread I started watching a TV series about British aristos and their stately homes. This lead to other YouTube videos and a podcast.
Some observations I made:

1. The women all have great bone structure with the infamous MN UMC swooshy hair.

1. A lot of "sleepless nights" and hand wringing about how they can maintain their homes, which they are "custodians" of. Many have had to do tours/homemade jams/souvenirs to try to bring in extra money. But, their dc go to private schools - surely the first thing you'd do is remove them from that to save money or get rid of the ponies?

1. Re decor, lots of chintz like you'd expect in lovely formal rooms but their kitchens look like something Kim and Aggie need to tackle. Clutter covering all available workspace, books, riding gear, pet bowls etc, lots of knick knacks. Someone on another thread stated that the 'clutter free' movement is a class thing, with it being a LMC to working class thing. Not sure if this is true but interesting all the same.

I don't know anyone who is truly UMC as in old money or landed gentry types. For those who are acquainted, what are they like and how do they live?

I think in the future there will be the classes of genetics.

Not that it doesn't already apply but we're talking qualifications of great health and briliant features.

@vera99 Thats a test I don't need to take: since I need to work for a living, my instincts tell me I am WC.

@ViolinPin Please stop the world, I'm getting off now. I think you are right.

@ViolinPin I saw a picture of the YouTuber Montagu's dc and I was struck at how un-aristo the eldest 2 dc looked. A bit of a dig discovered that they aren't his bio kids. I do think the UC have their own looks/features.

In no particular order:

The Royal physician to the Tsar.
The Bishop who crowned Lady Jane Grey.
A faction of fighters at Bosworth who came in with the traitorous Stanleys.
A rogue Irish Catholic bishop who enjoyed telling the English (and Queen Victoria specifically) to get fucked, translated the Bible to Gaelic, and denied the infallibility of the Pope.

They none of them knew how to behave. And no great respectors of the monarchy.

That's quite a heritage you have and your roots wise seem very upper middle bordering on UC if not actual. Was this an Ancestry.com thing you did or does the knowledge run in the family? Prior knowledge would tend to indicate UC -doing internet research is very middle.

BTW find a grave is very good - it's a project to catalogue as many gravestones as they can in a sort of Wikipedia fashion. My parents are both on it which I found accidentally by googling my dad's name. You can then join and add your own memories to the record if you wish.

www.findagrave.com/

A couple of family historians have taken responsibility for it, and the Dictionary of National Biography takes care of the further reaches.

The family are 95% middle class now, but, for example, my uncle is the spit of the current viscount, so the genes are quite strong. I'd have to take out a hell of a lot of people to get the family seat! Funnily enough, the current holder is chummy with Dominic Cummings. So the prestige continues, if not somewhat remotely.

I'd have to take out a hell of a lot of people to get the family seat!

A Kind Hearts and Coronets thing.😂

DC had an uncle who died of Covid who was a senior judge and his wife is the daughter of a baronet so the force is strong !

I love that film!

I bet you do 😉

I, do wonder how far this genetics thing will go though.

I can imagine it expanding to the point there will be some kind of doomsday data, where we all know our genetic links, who not to breed with, dangerous combinations for future timebombs. Eugenics.
They seem to be already doing this with certain deseases, be intersting to know some of the genetics that made up a large part of the UC.

Early UC, genetics of strength, intellegence maybe an under developed autonomic nervous system that enabled bravery maybe 🤔

Does anyone have any views on the House of Lords?

Yeah get rid of it and have an elected upper chamber. It seems crazy in this day and age to have some hereditaries and l load of ex pols whose ermine has come from the patronage of the PM.

I dislike and disagree with the House of Lords in principle, but strangely they often seem to be more in touch with the people than the House of Commons, and put brakes on some of the government's more outrageous ideas. Here's one for starters Crime bill: Lords defeats for government's protest clamp-down plans

I agree that the House of Lords is theoretically problematic in a democracy, but it works and I would hate to replace it with an echo chamber of the Commons. If we elected a second house to do the job the Lords do, it would be ineffective as it would swing to Labour/Conservative at the same time. The fact that the Lords are not elected means that there is continuity and longevity of service. It also means that the people serving are not politicians swayed by trying to get votes. On the whole they act as a good control to stop extremism within parliament.

"If we elected a second house to do the job the Lords do, it would be ineffective as it would swing to Labour/Conservative at the same time."

You'd hold the elections at different times, surely?

It would still be full of people who were only able to take a short term view (as far as the next election).

I am an opponent of hereditary privilege, but I think an unelected house that doesn't need to worry about reelection is better for taking a long term view.

On calmer thought, I would get rid of the hereditaries and take patronage away from the PM and has some way of nominating and voting for new members so only the truly great and the good get to sit. I mean what does Lebedev bring to the party apart from the deep stench of corruption coupled with the fact he never attends?

I know a lot of upper class and upper middle class families. Sometimes siblings born into an upper class family, become more upper middle class because of who they marry. Eg sister 1 marries Lord X with Y famous estate, “upps” her upper class further. Sister 2 marries X banker and moves to Surrey, becomes upper middle class by doing so. Now has an Aga, a big Surrey pad rather than a manor. Children of Sister 1 firmly at Eton, kids of Sister 2 now at Rugby or Radley or god forbid Harrow. Brother of course inherits the title and stays just as he was born (but depending on who he marries, behaves a certain way).

Upper class will typically have connections to the royal family, a farm or huge estate (often 1 in Scotland or Wales too), a particular club membership in London and a very filled diary.
Upper Middle Class is much more Logo, branded stuff, cleaner house etc. - rich but more normal.
It is also a question of what you are invited to. If your diary is busy all year round with significant invitations to well known connected people you are going to be more upper class. If you are truly upper class you will also have significant godparents.
And then of course there is a big difference in the generations too.

Upper Middle Class is a much more comfortable life any day than Upper Class. Upper Class comes with lots of tedious responsibilities that have to be maintained. Like opening the estate to the public, attending numerous events throughout the year. Hence the kids go to boarding school, very difficult to fit in otherwise.

So, would you say the dies are cast as soon as you marry then @Aleaiactaest ?

( As an aside, unrelated; the best marriage advice I've heard to date remains "Just don't marry a nutter".)

I always feel the royal family are the big losers of the Upper Upper Uppers.
All the toys, but, all the responsibilities, all eyes on them, all the time and no time, almost no private life. Everyone else in their world has it a lot easier.

My small violin is furiously playing nobody loves you when you're down and out...😁

@SleeplessinSouthwold - I wouldn’t say as soon as you marry, but who you marry casts the die for your children. So if you are born Upper Class you will still be invited to X, Y and Z but the same won’t apply to your children any more to the same extent if you marry Upper Middle. Unless they marry up again.

If you take someone like Jacob Rees-Mogg though - definitely very very firmly Upper Middle rather than Upper, I do wonder whether because of his notoriety and the education his own children will receive whether they will marry Upper and they may become Upper.

In addition, lots is changing now with all the rich Asians etc going to UK boarding schools and who knows who the kids will all marry in the future. Because if you are constantly invited to eg India, Singapore, Hong Kong, China etc you may fall in love there.

Prince William married Upper Middle, Prince Harry married foreign, rich, successful. They have paved the way for more and more mixed marriages.

My comments were just as to current status quo. As the current elderly Lords and Ladies, the keepers of the Upper rules die out, things will change.

It was a tong-in-cheek comment @Aleaiactaest I obviously overshot it😊

😄Of course! But it does explain the martyr stances at times.

TONGUE would be more palatable, than a tong, sorry.😏