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Ukraine Invasion: Part 33

990 replies

MagicFox · 11/10/2022 21:24

Starting this at 980 on the other thread because it's late and I might miss the tipping point. We're moving fast at the moment, thanks all for the analysis, insight and company

OP posts:
Thread gallery
52
TargusEasting2 · 12/10/2022 22:33

BreadInCaptivity · 12/10/2022 21:58

This is worth a read. Interviews from Russian soldiers serving/have served in Ukraine.

It really does illustrate the point made by @MissConductUS that it's not just the number of troops Russia has lost, but the fact they are are replacing their best with conscripts who will be significantly less effective.

meduza.io/en/feature/2022/09/28/honestly-they-re-all-going-to-die-there

If that article dated 28 September is purporting to be current, it is in fact from March or April. I remember reading that narrative from “Kirill” and seeing that picture of the Russian body, back in those early months.

notimagain · 12/10/2022 22:36

On a slightly lighter note (well not if you are a Russian conscript):

twitter.com/DefenceU/status/1580090899228418048

OwlsDance · 12/10/2022 22:43

I'm not an engineer, but this doesn't look very healthy

twitter.com/bayraktar_1love/status/1580307229650997249?t=TkHS0X71-sXo74hcGh5TJQ&s=19

ScrollingLeaves · 12/10/2022 22:44

BreadInCaptivity · Today 21:58
Thank you for the interviews with Russian soldiers about the war
meduza.io/en/feature/2022/09/28/honestly-they-re-all-going-to-die-there

It really brings a sense of reality about their experience of this war.

I was struck by the first soldier, Kirill’s, interview. He said something to the effect that he changed so much in one day that he.could not recognise himself and it was terrifying.

He also said they themselves were the fascists: the denazification going on was of them.

OwlsDance · 12/10/2022 22:44

Reportedly 9km of trucks queue to get out of Crimea, taking 3-4 days to cross (I'm assuming for the ferry)

ScrollingLeaves · 12/10/2022 22:54

TargusEasting2 · Today 22:33
If that article dated 28 September is purporting to be current, it is in fact from March or April. I remember reading that narrative from “Kirill” and seeing that picture of the Russian body, back in those early months.

But in this interview Kirill said the following about the recent• conscriptions so perhaps he was re-interviewed.

When I look at [the people being mobilized now], I see myself three months ago. But I don’t have any sympathy for them. If you have a choice, choose life! Sure, it might be life in prison; sure, the state will consider you a criminal — for you’ll know you’re not a criminal. You won’t kill anybody. You won’t shoot anybody.

Dionysius · 12/10/2022 23:25

Thank you again for the thread and to all contributors.

L1ttledrummergirl · 12/10/2022 23:33

Sorry all, I didn't mean to upset the apple cart earlier. I hope everyone is ok.

Thank you to all contributing.

MissConductUS · 13/10/2022 00:17

L1ttledrummergirl · 12/10/2022 23:33

Sorry all, I didn't mean to upset the apple cart earlier. I hope everyone is ok.

Thank you to all contributing.

All is well in New York. 😄

And you're most welcome. I think we all learn a lot here.

MissConductUS · 13/10/2022 00:30

This is an excellent article from the WSJ today on how the Ukrainians are using superior military doctrine and tactics to confound and defeat a much larger but poorly performing Russian adversary. Most of the points have been discussed previously, like Russian command doctrine and maneuver warfare vs attritional warfare, but it's still well worth a read.

How Ukrainian Strategy Is Running Circles Around Russia’s Lumbering Military - Classic military operations and nimble battlefield decision-making are exploiting the incompetence and top-down command of Russian forces

By Stephen Fidler, James Marson and Thomas Grove
Oct. 12, 2022 10:21 am ET

Eight months into Ukraine’s war with Russia, its emerging strategy is combining classic military operations with opportunism on the battlefield to exploit the incompetence of Russian forces—and is changing the course of the battle.

Ukraine’s command structure encourages junior officers to make in-the-moment battlefield decisions, an authority that they have used to seize opportunities and quickly take advantage of enemy weaknesses.

Russians, by contrast, have been slowed by a Soviet-era decision-making structure, in which orders trickle down the chain of command from Moscow, and troops at the front lines take little initiative.

In weeks, Ukraine has cleared Russian forces from thousands of square miles in the Kharkiv region of the country’s northeast. Its forces are now advancing south toward the occupied city of Kherson, a regional capital.

Rather than directly engaging with the grinding artillery exchanges and tank battles that Russia favors, Ukraine has sought instead to surround Russian forces and cut off supply lines. It has effectively integrated Soviet-era equipment with long-range precision Western artillery and rocket systems to starve its enemy of fuel, ammunition and other supplies.

A Russian-built bridge to Crimea critical to supplying Russian forces on the peninsula was seriously damaged in an explosion Saturday that Moscow has blamed on Ukraine. Russian President Vladimir Putin said Monday he would strike back, hours after his forces launched a barrage of missiles hitting civilians and energy infrastructure in Kyiv and other cities. Russia has denied targeting civilians and residential infrastructure.

Mr. Putin has responded to the battlefield setbacks with a politically risky military draft of hundreds of thousands of civilians and appears to be digging in for a long campaign.

While Moscow retains a large proportion of its gains from the war’s early days, and nobody knows how the conflict will end, Western military historians say Ukraine’s battlefield successes will be long studied. They cite parallels to classic military strategies used in major conflicts over the past century.

The Ukrainian advances in the east and the south of the country looked like separate operations but in retrospect they appear to be part of a coordinated plan. “I see them as part of a whole,” said Phillips O’Brien, professor of strategic studies at the University of St. Andrews in Scotland.

Ukraine telegraphed its plan to attack Kherson in the south as early as August. In response, Russia reinforced its southern front with thousands of its more experienced troops.

Moscow’s decision reflected the economic importance of the region, which controls access and water supplies to Russian-occupied Crimea. But moving its troops there meant depleting its forces in the east. The Kharkiv region was left with a single layer of defense, manned largely by poor-performing troops from Russian-controlled separatist enclaves nearby.

Ukrainian forces took advantage of those weakened defenses last month, launching a surprise advance in Kharkiv. Once Ukrainian forces succeeded in punching a hole in the line, they retook thousands of square miles of territory, and the Russians made a chaotic retreat. The attack delivered a victory that boosted morale, as well as Ukraine’s standing among its Western allies.

The attack in Kharkiv was made possible by the Kherson operation, Mr. O’Brien said.

Military historians say the rout of Russian forces on the Kharkiv front with a highly mobile force—known as maneuver warfare—echoes classic examples of the strategy in the 20th century.

François Heisbourg, defense adviser at the Paris-based Foundation for Strategic Research, likened the operation to German Gen. Heinz Guderian’s crossing of the River Meuse in Belgium against French forces in May 1940. The move helped to open the rest of Belgium and northern France to a rapid advance by German armor.

Mr. Heisbourg also cited Israeli Maj. Gen Ariel Sharon’s surprise move over the Suez Canal in the 1973 Yom Kippur war, which decisively shifted the war against Egypt and other Arab states in Israel’s favor.

While Ukrainian forces moved quickly into Kharkiv, the Kherson front moved slowly. Facing a larger, better-performing force than in Kharkiv, Ukrainian troops over weeks wore down Russian resistance by striking supply depots and routes across bridges over the Dnipro River, cutting off thousands of Russian troops in and around Kherson.

Having secured a bridgehead onto the eastern bank of the Inhulets River in August, Ukrainian troops began this month to press down the western bank of the Dnipro, threatening a pincer movement around Russian forces and forcing a retreat.

Agility, arms
Mick Ryan, a military strategist and retired major general in the Australian army, said Ukraine has sequenced its campaigns to great effect.

He described the Ukrainian strategy as one of corrosion, the hollowing out of the physical, moral and intellectual capacity of Russian forces to fight.

Ukraine has used “an indirect approach,” Mr. Ryan said, which was first outlined by the 20th century British military strategist Basil Liddell-Hart. It seeks to change the balance of force “by draining the enemy’s force, weakening him by pricks instead of risking blows.” The approach capitalizes on surprise and nimble movement.

“Russians want attrition, they want formations clashing en masse—that’s where they’re used to having the advantage,” said John Spencer, chair of urban warfare studies at the Madison Policy Forum. “But the Ukrainians won’t give them that.”

Oleksiy Danilov, secretary of Ukraine’s National Security and Defense Council, said Ukraine’s introduction from the West of a command-and-control model based on the North Atlantic Treaty Organization provided a competitive advantage. “A junior commanding officer has the ability to make decisions depending on the situation and takes responsibility for himself, for his soldiers and for the territory,” he said.

Eliot Cohen, a military historian and strategist with the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington, said the Russians “are capable of making big decisions, but I wouldn’t call it an agile military, by a long shot.”

Especially not compared with the Ukrainians, he said: “When they see opportunities, they’ll take them and, in war, there are always opportunities.”

Modern tools of warfare critical to Ukraine include precision long-range artillery and rocket launchers provided by the U.S. and other allies. Together with shared Western intelligence and drones, which help Ukrainian forces to see over the horizon, the advanced weapons, including Himars, have allowed Ukraine to hit supply lines, air-defenses and military bases far behind enemy lines.

The speed and mobility of Western military vehicles—including infantry fighting vehicles and personnel carriers—have given Ukrainian forces the upper hand in piercing Russian defensive lines, quickly expanding control and creating fear among enemy troops.

“Without high mobility, we wouldn’t have been able to outplay Russians in terms of maneuvers,” said Mykola Bielieskov, research fellow at the Kyiv-based National Institute for Strategic Studies, a government-backed think tank.
Two steps back

Russian failures also helped open the way for Ukraine’s advance in the Kharkiv region. When Ukrainian commandos slipped behind enemy lines last month, they were stunned to find Russian troops so unprepared.

At the end of August, drone teams and special-forces squads crept through forests and along treelines to probe for weak points. They were surprised by how relaxed Russian soldiers appeared, barely seeking cover from aerial surveillance. There were only a handful of armored vehicles in front-line villages.

The reconnaissance teams called in artillery strikes using Starlink—a U.S. satellite system providing access to the internet—targeting ammunition depots, vehicles and personnel. Intelligence officers used radio intercepts and other surveillance to locate enemy positions. Drone pilots offered artillerymen a range of targets and sometimes called in strikes directly. Paratroopers and other assault units fanned out through villages, communicating on encrypted radios.

Russia’s military often had no internet or cellphone signal, and radios reached only a couple of miles.

Russian forces dug few trenches around positions in the Kharkiv region, allowing Ukrainian forces to quickly push toward occupied towns. In many cases, only land mines slowed the Ukrainians’ advance, including those they had laid themselves during their retreat five months earlier.

The Ukraine forces advanced roughly 50 miles within days, flushing thousands of Russian troops from northeastern Kharkiv. They avoided street fighting in urban centers, including the cities of Balakliya and Shevchenkove, by seizing villages around them, and then surrounding the Russians in small pockets, forcing them to withdraw.

Many Russians ran, leaving behind equipment as well as their dead and wounded. Unlike the Russians, Ukraine hasn’t bombarded cities, avoiding the hostility of residents, whose loyalties may be mixed.

Ukrainian troops pushed ahead to the Oskil River, cutting the main Russian supply lines from the north. Izyum, the largest city in the area, was nearly surrounded. Forces pressed from the south to block the last road out.

By Sept. 10, the Russians had withdrawn, sometimes commandeering civilian vehicles to escape. Soldiers raced across fields in armored vehicles that got stuck, forcing a retreat on foot. Moscow said it was regrouping forces in the Donetsk region and called the hasty withdrawal an organized operation.

The Russians left behind hundreds of tanks, howitzers and fighting vehicles. Ukrainians got many of them running to use against their former owners.

“We didn’t have air superiority, we didn’t have superiority in firepower, we just had the proper conditions and exploited lower concentration of Russian troops, their lack of reserves and geography,” Mr. Bielieskov said.

MagicFox · 13/10/2022 06:57

@chrisowiki With the news today that Russia has arrested eight people as suspects for the bombing of the Crimea Bridge on 8 October, I thought it would be useful to try to piece together a full account of the Russian narrative, as I've not yet seen it in Western sources. Long 🧵 follows .https://twitter.com/chrisoo_wiki/status/1580303771208339456?s=46&t=Uc-uLzWkAfR7GXaTiSHvKw

@admitimalhora Singapore’s top former diplomat says China has made 3 FP mistakes. 1. Prematurely giving up ‘hide your strength & bide time approach 2. Believing their own propaganda that US’ decline is absolute 3. No limits partnership with Russia becoming a liability. https://twitter.com/aditimalhotraa_/status/1580135107968397313?s=46&t=Uc-uLzWkAfR7GXaTiSHvKw

@henryfarrell Six stories in the last few days about the weaponization of the world economy. It's very strange for @ANewman_forward and me to see the logic of our 2019 article (and forthcoming book - Underground Empire - Holt 2023) playing out. twitter.com/henryfarrell/status/1580180931284938752?s=46&t=Uc-uLzWkAfR7GXaTiSHvKw (this thread is breathtakingly eye opening)

@cameronjjj A 🧵 on the Russian strategy of escalation through missile attacks, why its likely logic is wrong, and the possible consequences. twitter.com/cameronjjj/status/1580160401756418048?s=46&t=Uc-uLzWkAfR7GXaTiSHvKw

I love this video of Charles reacting to Truss's visit ("oh dear, oh dear") : twitter.com/bmay/status/1580281365899096065?s=46&t=Uc-uLzWkAfR7GXaTiSHvKw

OP posts:
MagicFox · 13/10/2022 07:05

Just published, US National Security Strategy: www.whitehouse.gov/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/Biden-Harris-Administrations-National-Security-Strategy-10.2022.pdf

"Third, this strategy recognizes that the PRC presents America’s most consequential geopolitical challenge. Although the Indo-Pacific is where its outcomes will be most acutely shaped, there are significant global dimensions to this challenge. Russia poses an immediate and ongoing threat to the regional security order in Europe and it is a source of disruption and instability globally but it lacks the across the spectrum capabilities of the PRC. We also recognize that other smaller autocratic powers are also acting in aggressive and destabilizing ways. Most notably, Iran interferes in the internal affairs of neighbors, proliferates missiles and drones through proxies, is plotting to harm Americans, including former officials, and is advancing a nuclear program beyond any credible civilian need. The Democratic People’s Republic of Korea (DPRK) continues to expand its illicit nuclear weapons and missile programme.

The third part is about China and Russia, well worth reading. See also (not related) attached - interesting.

Ukraine Invasion: Part 33
OP posts:
Igotjelly · 13/10/2022 07:12

Just catching up on some of the commentary around the UN Assembly vote last night. Interesting to note that Serbia voted against Russia (it didn't abstain as expected). This is pretty significant. Serbia might be small but they are traditionally a staunch Russian ally.

Igotjelly · 13/10/2022 07:15

Also interesting are the UAE, Myanmar, Egypt and Iraq.

Igotjelly · 13/10/2022 07:16

twitter.com/UN_News_Centre/status/1580290964165341185?s=20&t=oavOWr21la_KrwuK-b10WA

Link to the full voting register if anyone wants to see it.

Natsku · 13/10/2022 07:19

ScrollingLeaves · 12/10/2022 21:55

MissConductUS
So long, very technical story short, it's extremely unlikely that a warhead would detonate before reaching the target location, even if the missile carrying it was shot down.

So would the shot down warhead part remain intact and never explode no matter the impact of what hit it, or the impact of it hitting the ground?

(Sorry if this is a stupid question)

My understanding is that they are designed to survive impact, so its not the impact that sets them off, they go off when they are supposed to according to how they're programmed, whether that's in the air or on the ground or under the ground.

Natsku · 13/10/2022 07:21

Muminabun · 12/10/2022 21:30

I have already assigned a look to each of the regular posters over the last few months so I doubt I will need name tags 😄

I'm intrigued as to what looks you have assigned people

Igotjelly · 13/10/2022 07:25

Natsku · 13/10/2022 07:21

I'm intrigued as to what looks you have assigned people

Frankly if I'm not imagined to be at least 6ft tall, willowy and gorgeous i'll be very disappointed 😂

Natsku · 13/10/2022 07:34
Grin
RedToothBrush · 13/10/2022 08:07

Igotjelly · 13/10/2022 07:12

Just catching up on some of the commentary around the UN Assembly vote last night. Interesting to note that Serbia voted against Russia (it didn't abstain as expected). This is pretty significant. Serbia might be small but they are traditionally a staunch Russian ally.

The Serbian economy is dependent on support from Russia. Thats stopped. That gives them only one alternative...

Igotjelly · 13/10/2022 08:07

GrinGrinGrin Spotted at a protest in Prague, thought you might enjoy it.

Hancox432 · 13/10/2022 08:11

I feel there has been a drop in the nuclear rhetoric from Russia in the last week or so since think the illegal annexations. Just today they mention about Ukraine joining NATO could cause world war 3. I would fully expect them to threaten a nuclear attack if they were admitted to NATO (not that WW3 would be much better).

Part of me wandered if they have been given a dressing down by China etc or if they were worried the the west has threatened an attack as soon as they say preparation of nuclear forces.

Who knows, they do definitely go in phases with the nuclear rhetoric though, as if it's just to remind us every few months that they still have the capabilities.

Natsku · 13/10/2022 08:15

I think they just like to mention it now and then to get people panicking, but not too often because they don't want anyone (their own people perhaps) to start questioning why they aren't going further than words.

Ijsbear · 13/10/2022 08:20

I thnk @Natsku has it.

It is indeed noticeable that whenever one of Putin's Red Lines has been crossed that he doesn't escalate the rhetoric. It happens when things are less at crisis point. Which makes me think that, given the US has told him very clearly that there will be an extremely strong response to the use of nukes, he's actually being careful not to go there.

He goes on and on about it in order to scare the democracies of the West, so that there will be less support for Ukraine and less support for political parties that want to keep supporting Ukraine, and less support for democracy full stop.

Ijsbear · 13/10/2022 08:28

Not got time for a full roundup today, but at least some bits:

ISW Key Takeaways

Russia is intensifying efforts to set information conditions to falsely portray Ukraine as a terrorist state to deflect recent calls to designate Russia as a terrorist state.

Russian forces may have imported Iranian Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps (IRGC)-affiliated personnel to occupied areas in Ukraine to train Russian troops in the use of Shahed-136 drones.

Russian sources claimed that Ukrainian troops continued counteroffensive operations toward Svatove and Kreminna. Russian forces are continuing defensive operations in this area.

Russian sources continued to claim that Ukrainian forces are conducting ground attacks in northwestern and western Kherson Oblast.

Russian forces conducted ground attacks around Bakhmut and Avdiivka.

Russian forces are likely reinforcing the frontline in western Zaporizhia Oblast.

The Russian military continues to face problems equipping individual Russian soldiers with basic personal equipment.

Russian and occupation administration officials continue to employ coercive measures against residents in Russian-occupied territories.

+++

⚡️ Ukraine downs 4 Russian helicopters in 18 minutes.
Ukrainian anti-aircraft missile units shot down at least four Russian attack helicopters (presumably Ka-52) in southern Ukraine from 8:40 a.m. to 8:58 a.m. on Oct. 12, Ukraine’s Air Force reported.

⚡️ Reuters: Washington to provide Ukraine with $4.5 billion budget support.

⚡️ Germany to give Ukraine additional MLRS, howitzers.
Germany will hand over to Ukraine "more" self-propelled artillery howitzers Panzerhaubitze 2000 and multiple launch rocket systems MARS II “in the next few weeks,

⚡️Netherlands to supply surface-to-air missiles worth $14.5 million to Ukraine.

⚡️Canada announces additional $47 million in military aid for Ukraine.

⚡️IAEA: Zaporizhzhia nuclear plant's power supply restored.
The Zaporizhzhia Nuclear Power Plant has restored its external power supply after an outage on the morning of Oct. 12, according to Rafael Mariano Grossi, head of the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA).

⚡️Czech Republic shuts border for Russian tourists.

⚡️Bloomberg: US considers ban on Russian aluminum.

⚡️Prosecutors: Body of another civilian killed by Russian troops found in Kharkiv Oblast.
Previously 24 people killed by Russian troops, including a pregnant woman and 13 children, had been identified near Kurylivka.

⚡️ UN condemns Russia’s illegal annexation of four Ukrainian oblasts.
Of the 193 member states, 143 voted in favour, Russia, Syria, Nicaragua, North Korea, and Belarus opposed, while 35 countries abstained. The rest of the countries didn’t vote.

⚡️Putin offers to supply gas via undamaged parts of Nord Stream 2. [fucking unbelievable]

⚡️Investigative journalists: Russia's irrecoverable casualties in Ukraine reach 90,000 troops.
iStories, a Russian independent investigative journalism project, cited an anonymous source at the country’s Federal Security Service and a former intelligence officer.
The irrecoverable casualties include those killed in action, missing in action, those who died in hospital, and injured troops who cannot return to military service.

⚡️ France to provide air defense systems to Ukraine.

⚡️ UK to supply air defence missiles to Ukraine.
U.K. Defense Secretary Ben Wallace said the U.K. will deliver AMRAAM missiles to Ukraine.

High personnel losses again; possibly signs of a quiet offensive we'll hear more about in the coming days? there is apparently often a delay in reported gains

6 helicopyers!!

Ukraine Invasion: Part 33
Ukraine Invasion: Part 33
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