Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Chat

Join the discussion and chat with other Mumsnetters about everyday life, relationships and parenting.

5 month old and 2 year old killed by family pet pitbulls

359 replies

eucalippy · 08/10/2022 09:17

That the family had for over 8 years without a single prior violent incident. The attack went on for ten minutes leaving the baby boy and 2 year old girl dead and the mother with an "uncountable amount of stitches and injuries"

Stuff like this makes me so sad but scares me too, I've always been scared of big dogs, but it's something I try and keep at bay and not put on to my kids. My brother and his wife have 2 Rottweilers who I was petrified of at first but have learnt to be around, they are very calm but stuff like this makes me feel like I can never take the kids round there again because what if they just turn?

I know about the whole it's owners not breed spiel, but stuff like this brings that into question surely? You can never truly know what a dog might do can you? Sad

Link if anyone doesn't know what I'm talking about. RIP to those beautiful kids.

www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/baby-sister-killed-pitbulls-memphis-b2197336.html?amp

OP posts:
nestofhill · 08/10/2022 12:58

The solution is not banning more breeds/types - if it were, we wouldn't be where we are now. We've got 30+ years of evidence that that doesn't work.

So what's the alternative? Education on dog ownership? A licence of some sort?

The XL dogs featured so frequently in the death lists could surely only be kept safely by a minority of specialist owners?

Buteverythingsfine · 08/10/2022 13:01

My dd was bitten at her friend's house, she was 15, round there as her friend was upset, making some food and the dog jumped up to the food and bit her probably as an accident rather than by design. It was a bull breed, unsure which one. She was fine afterwards, given antibiotics as a precaution.

Just shows even if you can control what happens in your own home, you can't control what happens with dogs in someone elses.

StopStartStop · 08/10/2022 13:01

Oh, no, the children will have done something to provoke them. [Me trying to be a MN dog-lover]

Looking like prey, for example.

Dogs as pets should be banned.

DNAshelicase · 08/10/2022 13:02

‘It’s not the breed it’s the owner’ is absolute bullshit. These breeds have been selectively bred for decades to be aggressive, it’s in their DNA. Just like a border collie will have instinctive herding behaviours intended for sheep, pitbulls are inherently more aggressive because they’re bred to be protective guard dogs.

over decades these selectively bred features become exaggerated because of inbreeding, worsening breathing problems in pugs is a good example of this.

TheSmallestOneWasMadeline · 08/10/2022 13:03

ShootingForTheMoonLandingOnMyArse · 08/10/2022 12:46

It must be exhausting to have to be on constant alert that your dog and child are never left alone together surely?

This is in your home where you should be able to relax but you can't, you're also acknowledging that you are deliberately keeping a danger within your household that could cause serious harm to your child. I mean WTAF

Absolutely nuts!

I wouldnt say exhausting, no. My daughter is only a toddler so I keep my eyes on her anyway, the dog is just an extra hazard in that sense! It feels fairly normal.

Of course I have to be extra vigilant, but we made the decision to have a child when we already had a dog so I accept that making sure their interactions are safe and controlled are just a part of having children and animals. She isnt allowed to bother him when hes eating or sleeping and I do monitor that. I grew up with dogs so a degree of care feels quite normal to me.

Not sure what to say to the last part of your post other than yes I suppose I am but so does anyone who has animals/knives/stairs/electrical items etc in their houses! Of course there are risks but I'm comfortable with them and the mitigations we take.

I sound like a loon I'm sure but I'm actually normal just cautious 😁

Bikeybikeface · 08/10/2022 13:05

DuchessofAnkh77 · 08/10/2022 09:55

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_dog_attacks_in_the_United_Kingdom

Yes, although when you read the list there are certainly dog breeds that stand out!

Wow, those American Bully XL are making a seriously bad name for themselves. How long before they ban them. There’s a few in my village, owned by the usual type as status symbols.

Eeksteek · 08/10/2022 13:06

@mam0918 I agree completely. Little dogs are are often bred to be vicious. All dogs have sharp teeth and strong jaws, and an excitable, short-tempered dog bred to bite is much more likely to bite than a big dope bred to fetch ducks and have a soft mouth.

The difference is a small dog can be physically lifted or kicked away from you, and easily hauled of by a parent and thrown into the nearest room with a door. They don’t hold on, they aren’t strong, they aren’t heavy. Bull types are all of those things. They were bred to be. So if they bite, they kill. It’s rare to have all those things in one animal (for obvious reasons)

dawngreen · 08/10/2022 13:09

You don't bother dogs that are sleeping.

LimboLass · 08/10/2022 13:09

The whole claim about the problem being with the owner and not the dog is far too overstated.

If a shit dog owner had an angry Yorkshire Terrier I think I could take it down if it ever went for me. But a Rottweiler or Alsation in a fight to the death? erm probably not so much...

Eeksteek · 08/10/2022 13:10

StopStartStop · 08/10/2022 13:01

Oh, no, the children will have done something to provoke them. [Me trying to be a MN dog-lover]

Looking like prey, for example.

Dogs as pets should be banned.

Thats extreme. It’s very likely that the children did distress the dog. That’s not their fault. It’s the parents/owner’s fault for not meeting the child’s need to be a child and the dog’s need to be a dog.

A dog is an animal. Not a baby. And should be treated as such. That doesn’t mean no one should have them.

LunaNova · 08/10/2022 13:14

Honestly, the amount of 'ignorant' (for want of a better word) dog owners around worries me.

We have two placid dogs and a toddler, even though they're placid we still take action everyday to avoid incidents. Our dogs/toddler are separated by baby gates probably 90% of the time, and the other it's under close supervision. We teach our DD an appropriate way to interact with the dogs (ie don't go near them while eating or in their beds).

We were walking our dogs a couple of months ago (Me, DH, DD who is 2). We pulled our dogs way off the path because we could see a woman and young teen boy approaching with 2 huge XL bullies. Woman walked past fine but the young teen was basically dragged over to us by the one he was walking, we had nowhere to go because we were stood in the undergrowth. It then snapped and grabbed our littlest dog by the scruff of her neck and started shaking her. I grabbed DD (she was stood beside us) and moved away from the dog in case in turned on us. DH obviously had our other dog and was trying to get this dog off our smaller one, thankfully when he yanked it's harness it let go and our dog was fortunately unharmed (physically, she's terrified of everything now). The young teen didn't stand a chance of stopping that dog. It's fortunate it wasn't worse.

In the midst of all that the woman had had to pin their other dog to the ground to stop it joining in.

I've never really prescribed to "dangerous breeds" as such but I think common sense tells us that it's not sensible to let a teen walk a dog so much stronger than they are. If dog ownership as a whole had more oversight I don't think that would be a bad thing but I'm not sure how that would work in practice.

Too often now people are having more dogs than they can manage or choosing inappropriate breeds for their lifestyles. Rescue centres seem to have had a boost in popularity, which while it's a good thing in one way it means some people are going home with dogs they can't manage.

RJnomore1 · 08/10/2022 13:19

I’d love to see stats on whether certain breeds do attack more or whether they’re stronger so cause more damage when they do but it’s a pretty even spread across breeds, I guess that would be impossible to get though

MyAnacondaMight · 08/10/2022 13:19

Firecarrier · 08/10/2022 10:00

Me neither its not a 'fur baby' it's an animal.

It makes me so angry when people trot out the 'it's the way you bring them up' thereby literally contradicting what dog breeds are - they are obviously bred that way to achieve certain characteristics...

We had a mixed breed jack Russell from a puppy, raised properly etc my child loved him, cuddled up together etc but he started getting snappy, protective of his food etc we tried all sorts and he nipped my child while I was in the room when he went to gently stroke him when he was dozing. We had him for a couple of years at that point.

We rehomed him but were very open about his character and insisted he was rehomed without children. Went to visit prospective owners etc. He went to an experienced older gentleman who has had him for the last few years without issue.

You allowed your child to threaten the dog when it was asleep. Of course he bit. It’s a bit like grabbing a child that is asleep in their bed and expecting them not to scream.

OP - teach your children to be respectful around dogs, but don’t worry specifically about Rottweilers. As a breed they’re actually great family dogs - gentle, patient, and big enough not to be threatened by children.

TheLadyofShalott1 · 08/10/2022 13:23

Galarunner · 08/10/2022 10:08

I think what is interesting about the type of breeds in dog attacks , is perhaps the type of dogs that people who like aggressive , status symbol type dogs changes over the years. German Shepherds are a case in a point. When I was a child GSDs seemed to really popular with unpleasant looking types that liked to walk around with a big dog looking hard. As kids we were warned about GSD. Remember Sabre in the Adrian Mole books, he would be a staffie cross now! They seem to have lost that status now. GSD seem to popular with nice people who like an intelligent dog that is very trainable , often for various dog sports. The only staffies I saw around when I was a kid seemed to be owned by farmers and were lovely , wriggly little things . Some staffies now seem twice the size. What I am trying to say a combination of selective breeding for particular traits and the personality of the person training the dog makes all the difference

I am in my 60's now. When I was about 11 years old my aunt and uncle visited us at home with their German Shepherd. They were a lovely and very gentle couple, who absolutely loved dogs. I was allowed to give it some treats, which it took nicely and enjoyed. A little later the dog and I were in the hall together, but I wasn't standing right next to it, I put my hand on the handrail of our staircase and their Alsation suddenly went for my throat.

Luckily my uncle entered the small hallway at the same time, and was able to grab their dog before it touched me, I ran upstairs sobbing my heart out through shock and fear. They went home. I never visited them at their home again, and they never came to ours with their dog. Apparently their dog's lead had been at the end of the bannister near to where I had placed my hand, and they said it had been guarding it's lead...

I stopped going out on my own for years after that, as I became terrified of all loose dogs - there were a lot more in those days - and when I was about 19 I walked into a corner shop and the owners GS wandered out from behind the counter, I just burst into tears and had to leave the shop. However, I have always loved dogs in general, and since being an adult have owned several myself, an Irish Setter, a Jack Russel Cross rescue dog of about one year old at adoption, and a Labrador. I adored those dogs, but I am still weary about GS's.

When I was a teenager/young adult, most of the dogs attacking people were reported as being German Shepherds. They had a reputation for suddenly "turning" after having spent years showing no aggression whatsoever, so I don't really agree with you OP.

CosyDarkNights · 08/10/2022 13:24

There's an easy way to avoid this and protect your children, don't have dogs anywhere near them. My brother and brother in law have dogs (one has 3 the other 2, no children though) my children have been in their presence once i had my then 3 month old in the garden on a blanket on the floor, I asked them to shut their dogs away which they did. Neither have "dangerous dogs" but I won't take the chance thanks. I think it's madness anyone would have small children and a dog, they are animals that can snap at anytime. My aunty had a German shepherd for years and one day it went for her, she was so upset as it could have been a child, or us even (we were very young at the time and used to play with it). Just not worth the risk.

mam0918 · 08/10/2022 13:24

LimboLass · 08/10/2022 13:09

The whole claim about the problem being with the owner and not the dog is far too overstated.

If a shit dog owner had an angry Yorkshire Terrier I think I could take it down if it ever went for me. But a Rottweiler or Alsation in a fight to the death? erm probably not so much...

Like I said earlier it took ONE bite from a 5kg lap dog to nearly kill me.

Hundreds of stiches as he went for the throat and they had to reattach several severed internal bood supplies.

All dog can be dangerous but people SERIOUSLY and IGNORANTLY misunderstand specifically the damage a small dog can do.

It does NOT take a prolonged attack, it does not take 'locking' on, you dont even have time to see the bite coming and it doesnt matter if you are bigger or can kick/pick it up (which by the way you will NOT have the presense of mind to do, you automaticlly grab the wound and try to run) it can still do the damage in a millisecond.

The dog that big me litrally bit once, didnt even attempt to bite again the damage was instant no need to kick/flail/fight or anything.

Hoppinggreen · 08/10/2022 13:26

These things are never out of the blue but people don’t know how to read their dogs.
The one time ddog bit DH I could very easily see it was about to happen.

HecateandCirce · 08/10/2022 13:26

Suzi888 · 08/10/2022 12:01

They are one ugly looking dog- they often do bite training, lift weights. This isn’t a pet. It’s a bloody monstrosity and we created it.

Good grief that is a monstrosity. Looks more like a hippo than a dog.

Wherewassteve · 08/10/2022 13:30

miceonabranch · 08/10/2022 11:20

You can never trust any animal of any species because they can't talk and tell us to back off if we're stressing them or if they're sick and feeling like they want to lash out. Obviously some animals are more dangerous than others. This ridiculous anthropomorphism that many dog owners indulge in is harmful. They don't have the intelligence to treat their pet as what it is, an animal, not their fur baby or harmless fluffikins or whatever. A decent, experienced owner can help minimise the likelihood of an attack happening, but it's never zero and parentage and upbringing, socialisation etc. only goes a certain way towards reducing harm.

Animals revert to type when stressed, sick or agitated. Big, powerful dogs of any breed can represent a threat. I'd rather try to prize a shitzhu off my arm than a bully dog.

Completely agree.

Also people getting them with no research and treating them like furniture/objects. The amount of dogs left all day in gardens in my street is disgusting, whining dogs all day with no stimulation, why on Earth do people get a dog and let it live like that with pent up emotions etc?

HoundofHades · 08/10/2022 13:31

When I was born, my parents owned two GSDs, who they were advised to get rid of - by the midwives - because "they'll kill the baby!". My parents chose to ignore their advice, and luckily... those two dogs became my protectors, even to the point of getting between me and my parents trying to smack me. Never growled, never bit anyone in the family, thought I was theirs to all extents and purposes. But the male was a trained guard dog, who often used to chase would-be burglars out of various Army properties. The female was considered "nasty" because my mother - who had spent her entire adolescence working with GSDs in the show rings, and grown up with other dogs - thought it funny to teach her to "see off" soldiers on the estate we lived in. She loathed men in uniform, to the point where if my soldier father came home in his - she wouldn't let him past the front door until my mother (and then, later, me) told her to. When I was 10 and she was 11, she fought to keep a burglar out of our home and was so badly beaten by the bastard, that she died from internal bleeding shortly after.

When I was 12, my father brought home the stables he worked at's "ratter" - a 9 month old GSD who had been badly abused. And trained to kill rats. My best friend; walked sedately by my side, without need of a lead, no matter where we were, never showed any signs of aggressive behaviour, stress, or dominance at any point in the next 11 years - and when my daughter was born, with special medical needs, he became "her" dog/protector. Other than a fight with his own 2 year old pup (my mother's GSD-cross), due to the pup charging at the door when someone knocked at 11pm-ish, then turning to run back along the hallway, but colliding with my dog, who was probably having an adrenaline surge and suddenly found a barking dog full on in his face - so reacted, he was the epitome of the perfect dog.

He was still never left alone with my daughter, however, whilst my parents are very fortunate that the midwives suggestion didn't become reality.

When my son was 18 months old, we got a spaniel. Softest of all my dogs. The most submissive, too. The most he ever did to my son was to sit on him, to keep him in place, if someone knocked on the door. Never left alone with him, or my older daughter. I have a Kokoni now - who has Border Collie and Corgi in her, with potential indicators of a terrier of some sort, and maybe Spaniel. She is my assistance dog, who is - out of all the many dogs I've shared my life with over the last 46 years - the best trained of the lot. And she loves babies/small children, to the point where if she hears one crying, then she wants to know why. But she will never be left alone with any potential grandchildren (my two are adults now), because she can be a bit possessive, gets a little over-enthusiastic about bringing parcels into the house, and my parents current (hulking) GSD is absolutely terrified of her. Don't know why, but I figure there is a reason. She is also a rescue, with dodgy origins, who is neurotic and displays terror in certain situations. Not a dog I would ever trust with a baby/toddler.

All of my dogs have been trained, but also treated with kindness and respect for the fact that they're not little humans in fur coats... they are animals, with very powerful jaws, who if they took it into their heads to hurt someone, or kill a child who is annoying them - each and every one of them, from the softy Spaniel to the "ratter" GSD, from the assisting Kokoni to the trained guard GSD duo, has the potential to actually do so. I really wish more people who bring a dog into their home, would grasp this concept. Train and socialise their puppies with other dogs and situations, understand their body language - even if just a basic grasp - and respect that they don't all want to be climbed over by shrieking, curious fingered little ones. Ensure their dog knows who is "boss" (ie, that it's not the dog!) and have a lot of boundaries in place, along with teaching the dog that "no" is all it needs to hear, to stop what it's doing - not a giggly "no, Fluffikins, oh please don't... stop Fluffikins, that's not very nice, oh you are a naughty dog, aren't you, Fluffikins?", because that just confuses and perhaps even ramps up the dog's misbehaviour.

My thought is that we need to bring back the Dog Licenses and have a course before being able to get one, with a "pass" and "fail" set in place. We do with driving, after all. Both a car and a dog can cause life-altering injuries and/or death, at the end of the day.

Wherewassteve · 08/10/2022 13:31

dawngreen · 08/10/2022 13:09

You don't bother dogs that are sleeping.

Exactly. It's almost like you should do the bear minimum research as the owner of an animal instead people act like they've bought an animatronic or a sofa.

Wherewassteve · 08/10/2022 13:32

*bare sorry

Emotionalsupportviper · 08/10/2022 13:33

FishOut · 08/10/2022 09:34

I wonder when it says without a single prior violent incident…

Some owners excuse behaviours like resource guarding or describe worrying behaviours as “just snapping” and work around the dogs, or ignore signs of stress (around children, for example), or punish a dog for growling. It is hard to believe a dog attacks like that with absolutely no history of aggressive behaviour.

I agree.

There has to have been something that the owners have dismissed. A bit of jealousy over the chilrend; resource guarding; high prey drive.

Toddlers' jerky movements can stimulate an aggressive prey-driven response in dogs of any breed; babies high-pitched cries, ditto.

But for the attack to be so incredibly savage it suggests that there is a lot of pent up energy, if not aggression - perhaps it's something as basic as the dogs didn't get enough exercise. (I know it sounds stupid, but it can be a factor)

These dogs are incredibly powerful - and they are also bred as a fighting dog (even if the owners don't use them for fighting). I've had staffies in the past (4), and they are a similar type. One of them was very prey-driven and would go into into a "zone" - completely unaware of anything except her target*. They are totally focussed on their opponent/ prey.

I imagine that pit bulls are the same, but they are bigger and more powerful - too strong and heavy to easily pull apart, and if they weren't wearing collars there is nothing to grab and their coats are very short and slippery (many US dogs also have cropped ears - nothing to grab there either).

This is just too terrible t think about - those poor babies, and that poor mother.

*Put us off the breed altogether, unfortunately - she could only be walked on leash and muzzled - it was exhausting.

ChickenDippersUnite · 08/10/2022 13:33

It's all well and good saying don't own dogs, keep them away from children etc. but what are you supposed to do should a large dog attack while walking through a park or in the street? It's always a worry when I'm with my kids that at any point a dog could easily attack, so genuinely, what would I need to do?

ColourMeExhausted · 08/10/2022 13:34

Sure that I'll get jumped on here...but I just wouldn't have a dog living with babies and small children. Regardless of breed, previous behaviour or temperament. Too much risk. As PP have said, it's an animal, not a fur baby! Have dogs when kids are older, but I think there's always a risk, and even if it was 'just' a bite, I would feel so guilty.