5 month old and 2 year old killed by family pet pitbulls

[eucalippy]

That the family had for over 8 years without a single prior violent incident. The attack went on for ten minutes leaving the baby boy and 2 year old girl dead and the mother with an "uncountable amount of stitches and injuries"

Stuff like this makes me so sad but scares me too, I've always been scared of big dogs, but it's something I try and keep at bay and not put on to my kids. My brother and his wife have 2 Rottweilers who I was petrified of at first but have learnt to be around, they are very calm but stuff like this makes me feel like I can never take the kids round there again because what if they just turn?

I know about the whole it's owners not breed spiel, but stuff like this brings that into question surely? You can never truly know what a dog might do can you?

Link if anyone doesn't know what I'm talking about. RIP to those beautiful kids.

www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/baby-sister-killed-pitbulls-memphis-b2197336.html?amp

This American public education website, already mentioned by a pp, is worth looking at:
www.dogsbite.org/

If you click on Dangerous Dogs at the top, you can read up on common myths, some mentioned on the thread.

Honestly this made me so furious! Same as those two 10 year old boys who were murdered by stupid dog owners choices recently.

Most dog owners are blinded by their weird obsession with their stinking 'fur baby' and many are really dumb and arrogant to boot.

What kind of idiot would keep an animal that could harm their child in their child's home which should be their absolute place of safety? They will put childlocks on doors. put baby gates up, keep knives and medications out of reach but will have an animal that could seriously injure or kill walking around the house, laying next to their babies etc.

Any dog can 'turn' no matter how well exercised, treated or trained they are because well, they are an ANIMAL!

@nestofhill if you check out the fatal dog attacks uk Wikipedia page there's actually been a couple of babies killed by Jack Russells. It surprised me too but goes to show no dog can be trusted.

I don't even leave my LO alone with the cat. Not worth it

www.theguardian.com/uk/2013/apr/09/baby-died-bitten-jack-russell

this one happened very close to us and was horrific:

www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/sunderland-dog-attack-police-begin-9495579

Jack Russell's definately do kill.

@doingitalllagain - I had a similar aversion to my cat when I brought my child home. It’s hard-wired in ad very normal, i think.

How terrible.
This is why I never take my children to my MIL. Her dog isn't violent but it isn't very well trained and is a frowned upon breed.

It's just not worth it. I'll never take that risk when the owner seems to think the dog is fine. I know MIL would leave children and dog alone if she got something from the kitchen.

I know this is a really unpopular opinion but I'm bloody sick of dogs, they're fecking everywhere. People seem to take them everywhere with them as well! I was just standing in a queue with DS to buy a croissant and there were at least four dogs in the queue (in a very small shop) three of whom were yapping away. Doesn't anyone leave their dogs at home anymore when they to out to buy milk or whatever? I grew up with two and we always used to be able to leave them for a few hours. Fed up with dogs taking up half the pavement on our busy local high street and their shit littering everywhere.

And I think you should have to have a license and take a test to prove you can handle a dog over a certain size and weight. I don't care if the majority of pitbulls are angels and it's all the owners' fault, one death by dangerous dog is too many.

Those saying that there were probably signs the parents ignored before it attacked, there seems to be a lot of documented sources online highlighting part of the reason pitbulls are so dangerous is because they don't do this. I wonder if this is the same for XL bullies?

"It is well documented by humane groups that to excel in dogfighting, pit bulls were selectively bred to conceal warning signals prior to an attack. For instance, a pit bull may not growl, bare its teeth or offer a direct stare before it strikes. Unlike all other dog breeds, pit bulls (fighting dogs) are also disrespectful of traditional signs of submission and appeasement."

Jack Russells are aggressive wee feckers. They belong on farms, ratting, not in family homes.

The situation here in the UK is the result of over 30 years of Breed Specific Legislation.

The banning of four breeds (three of which we did not have here at the time) told a certain demographic very clearly 'this is the type of dog to own if you want to intimidate people, protect yourself, give yourself a name as someone dangerous...'

The more widespread seizing of dogs was the more those people turned to the already existing trend for other large bullbreed mixes, because you could own those without any fear of them being taken - they did not fit the strict measurements DEFRA concocted for a 'pitbull type'.

So for 30+ years, some people have been perfecting a type of dog that is huge, has a stupidly high pain threshold, is easily frustrated and so reaches high arousal VERY quickly...

Alongside that they've selected for dogs willing to show aggression quickly (in the natural world, aggression means behaviours you'd use to increase distance, stop a situation, avoid actual violence, and you'd use them last because they're 'expensive' ie could cause injury and death) and dogs with highly predatory behaviour (predation is not aggression, predation is the desire to stalk, chase, grab, kill, and consume, a behaviour sequence we have adapted and altered in many breeds to suit our own ends).

And then add in no understanding of dog behaviour, training and socialisation that is poor if it exists at all, dogs punished heavily for communicating such that they learn to go straight to a bite without bothering to growl, dogs who've learned that fighting produces a huge adrenaline rush and are as such, danger junkies...

The solution is not banning more breeds/types - if it were, we wouldn't be where we are now. We've got 30+ years of evidence that that doesn't work.

Here are my 'red flags' for spotting a potentially dangerous dog/owner combination, they're what I would mentally run through when entering someones home for a dog behaviour consult, or assessing a dog in rescue (I used to assess seized dogs and general rescue dogs). (In no particular order, it is the combination of these things thats really key!)

• Size of the dog - does it out weigh me/handler
• Equipment on the dog - is it aversive, designed to cause pain
• Handling of the dog - is the handler/owner using punishment to suppress behaviour (shouting 'no', hitting, shocking, jerking a collar etc)
• Language of the owner - mention of 'alpha' or 'he knows who is boss' or 'dominance'
• Dogs body language - are they quiet and stiff, super aroused and over threshold, staring intently and stiff, lip curling, staring and freezing, obviously snarling/growling - which bits does the owner notice...
• Are the dogs needs being met - walks, training, play, socialisation
• Is the environment calm and safe for the dog or stressful and dangerous?
• Is the dog with children regularly
• Are children permitted to climb all over the dog and the dog expected to tolerate this?
• Is the dog owned/handled/kept by people who routinely get drunk or use drugs
• Where did the dog come from (breeder, rescue, bought in a pub or free ads etc)
• Does the owner want the dog as a guard dog or to provide personal protection

For parents who are not dog people - follow your instincts and I'd look out for the following:

• Kids making new friends particularly in secondary school - find out if friend has a dog at home before allowing your child to visit.
• Know the dogs your child has access to - meet them, or no access!
• If you have ANY doubts about the safety of the dog - don't let your kid be near that dog at all - better to offend someone by asking that they visit at your house without the dog than risk injury/death of anyone.
• DO NOT rely on people complying with rules - people say they will put the dog away then let the dog out, people will open doors they're told not to open. Management fails.

"Pro-pit bull groups continuously attempt to debunk the pit bull "locking jaw" expression that is often used by the media and the public. A pit bull's jaw may not physically lock, but due to selective breeding for a specific bite style to hold on and to shake indefinitely we consistently hear in news reports that the dog "would not let go." DogsBite.org has recorded numerous toolss_ used to try to get a pit bull to release its jaws including: crow bars, hammers, baseball bats and knives."

Rather than holding on to a technicality of it not physically locking, maybe understand that people are talking about it from this sense, it's far more dangerous to say "ooh it's impossible!! It's a myth!!" And disregard the above than it is to acknowledge that by all accounts once that jaw shuts, you aren't opening it. It might as well be physically locked, even if it isn't.

I know it is not the same, but my dog (Lab) was attacked by a XL bully and it nearly killed him. It ran across the field to my dog, pinned him down and tore a hole in his neck and chest. The owner walked on. When I confronted him (the big chav he was), he said the dog is gentle around his grandkids. I told him we would be hearing about their deaths in the news if he continued keeping that damned animal. Awful, awful dogs!!

I disagree little dogs are more dangerous. If you look at the list of fatal dog attacks in the UK very very few are by small dog breeds, but breeds such as bulldog, pitbull, Staffordshire bull terrier, Rottweiler, American bully XL etc come up time and time again.

Little dogs may possibly be more vicious or more likely to attack than bigger ones but if that is the case it’s clear that in cases where they do attack the attack is not likely to be fatal.

Any dog can snap, any dog can be vicious or bite, but there is obviously far more danger with a big, muscular, heavy breed because it’s far less likely the victim will be able to escape or that witnesses will be able to intervene and stop the dog.

Personally I don’t believe it should be legal to have any dogs in the house with children aged under 5 though, even a non-fatal dog bite/ attack can sustain life-changing injuries to a baby or toddler.

...he nipped my child while I was in the room when he went to gently stroke him when he was dozing...

You were in the room and you allowed your child to touch the dog whilst it was asleep? That is why the dog bit - it is foolish in the extreme to touch a dog that is sleeping. It doesn't know what is happening, any more than you would if you were suddenly awakened from sleep by something unexpected. What you perceive as "gently stroking" doesn't compute to even a human brain, never mind a dog brain - it is actually an unexpected and potentially dangerous attack on it whilst resting / asleep.

This is hardly a good example of "raised properly" etc but still aggressive. It is actually a great example of why people need to be much more aware of their own responsibilities as dog owners. Allowing a child to startle a sleeping dog is far from reasonable. Blaming the dog for having a bad character as a result is also unreasonable.

Preparing to get flamed but I genuinely don't understand why people have dogs that they couldn't overpower if it came down to it. And I especially don't understand why when they have small children. And I say this as parent and a dog owner.

I NEVER leave my dog and my toddler alone. We have boundaries that work both ways. Am I 100% sure my dog would never turn and try to attack? No, and any dog owner of any breed who says they are is deluded. So I make sure that he never has the opportunity and that I can easily overpower if he does. I'm 99% sure he never would harm my child but I'm sure as shit not willing to risk the 1%.

All dogs are dangerous, any one of them can turn. I get just as angry at idiot owners who do not understand this that I do at idiot owners who let their dogs be aggressive. It dose not matter what kind of owner you are or your dogs breed or nature, any dog can turn or attack, absolutely no one can be 100% certain their dog is not capable of this.

I really don’t get why people would want some of those big scary breeds, those ‘XL bully’ dogs look terrifying. What’s the issue with putting more breeds into the banned list?? Plenty of other breeds to choose from if people want a family pet dog. Nobody needs a massive scary dog.

Your quote there is referring to selective breeding dogs for fighting other dogs, it is not particularly relevant to dog attacks on people.

The cases we're seeing in the UK seem to involve:

• People splitting up dog fights between their own dogs
• Strangers entering the dogs home without the dogs adult owner present
• Dogs whose needs are not met
• Dogs trained using aversives that suppress communication/body language
• Dogs with a very poor genetic background

Pitties (well all those I have worked with) are generally pretty communicative with humans, it is one of the reasons they are so popular, you can read them like a book and they're incredibly easy to train, eager to please, quick to learn, will work for crumbs and fusses.

Until someone starts using aversives and punishes them for communication - that 'quick to learn' nature applies there too, they learn to suppress all that, and then you're down to very subtle body language like micro-second freezes, stiffness, eye flicks, tongue flicks that only an expert can read and only likely on a slo-mo video after the fact.

It must be exhausting to have to be on constant alert that your dog and child are never left alone together surely?

This is in your home where you should be able to relax but you can't, you're also acknowledging that you are deliberately keeping a danger within your household that could cause serious harm to your child. I mean WTAF

Absolutely nuts!

I'm a dog owner and in some respects, I agree with you. I'm fed up with the amount of times a huge lumbering dog will ran over and the owner (over half a field away) will shout "don't worry! It's friendly!". Yes, and what if mine isn't?! We had a huge boxer that is known in our area for attacking black dogs and it bounded over to my dog, which was on a lead, so I put myself in front of my dog. The owner casually comes over and asks if everything is ok - I reply that my dog is afraid of unknown dogs and he replied "yeah, mine too!". Honestly, there should be a competency test to own an animal!

It’s not that you could stop an attack. But you could certainly prevent one.

First, you meet the dogs’ needs. a healthy happy dog is a safe one. A dog ignored, ill, poorly socialised, afraid, overindulged or poorly trained is much more likely (although still very unlikely) to bite. Responsible owners prepared to learn about dogs and not treat them like dolls will be doing this already.

You give the dog a space where it can consistently go and be away from the child, where it is never bothered. This gives it an option and makes it feel safe. The child is NEVER allowed to approach the dog in its own space (generally a bed or crate). You don’t allow the child to bother the dog. Yeah, it’s cute when the baby crawls all over the dog. And most dogs will let it, because they are kind and patient. But they don’t like it. They don’t like being hugged. To them, it’s restraint. It’s unfair.

Your dog knows your child is a juvenile. It will be more patient with it. But it will also correct it and teach good manners, just as it would a puppy. If your child does not read a dog’s body language, your dog will discipline it. This often involves pinning down and nipping. It would not hurt another dog. It will hurt a child. It is not aggressive. But it will hurt, and look and sound awful. A dog should not be put in this position. That’s what you can prevent. You watch them. If the dog puts it’s ears back. If it rolls it’s eyes. Yawns with a whine on the end. If it whines. Or licks it’s nose repeatedly. It if barks like a loon. If it licks a lot. If it runs away. If goes to a corner or a trusted adult. If it grumbles. If it cries. Those things are it being unhappy and not knowing how to cope and you give it space. That doesn’t mean putting it out (because that’s often punishment) but you stop the child bothering it. If the dog trusts that you will ‘discipline’ the child and its boundaries will be respected, it won’t escalate. It doesn’t need to.

if you ignore all that, in desperation to be left alone a dog will then show it’s teeth, then growl, then air snap and lunge. If these are discouraged, or it’s really distressed it will in absolute desperation, nip. This bloody hurts and will leave bruises and puncture wounds, but probably not stitches. It is a not a bite and the dog will still get away if it can. It will probably also be sorry. They don’t like confrontation. But if you don’t fix this dog’s feeling of being threatened right now, it will bite next (maybe even next time. Their distress doesn’t go right back to zero and background stress can escalate faster) and that means someone is going to hospital. It could just bite right away - but they don’t. They do their damndest to let you know they feel unsafe. And people just ignore it.

And you teach your child the dog is not a toy, but a living being. You teach them to respect it’s body and it’s boundaries. You teach them about it’s amazing skills and abilities, it’s affection and loyalty. But you teach them that first and foremost it is a dog, not a person or a teddy bear, and the the responsibility for it’s comfort and wellbeing is ours (parents now, but theirs as they grow).

A dog has approximately the emotional capacity and intelligence of a three year old and should have about the same level of responsibility and trust in a home. Which is to say, it can largely be trusted not to hurt people or itself, if all it’s needs are met and the environment is fairly heavily modified.

YABVU

More men kill children than dogs do.

More cars kill children than dogs do.

More allergies kill children than dogs do.

Yes it is awful but in the grand scheme of things it’s a very small number of incidents.

You just need to do things like make sure they’re not left alone etc just like you’d not drink and drive.

Terrible story.

It’s really striking how close some of the arguments on the thread are to the arguments people in the US make for keeping a gun in the house- they’re not dangerous in themselves, only when the owner is irresponsible, and anyway did you know that far more injuries are caused by knives?

There’s often photos or videos on so idk media of dogs sniffing round newborns or small children cuddled up to digs, toddlers. I think it’s meant to be cute but it makes me really stressed.

Thanks for sharing that @WiddlinDiddlin