Large religious families

[carrotsinthepan]

I was watching something on YouTube and it struck me how many large families are religious families (especially Christian in the US and orthodox jewish in various places) I was just thinking that they seem to attract less criticism for the number of children they have opposed to non religious families .
I was also wondering why various religions promote large families as what I watched didn’t go into that ? I find it fascinating but have nobody in rl to discuss it with !

I have a large family and often get criticised and I was thinking - can this now be shut down if I say ‘it our religion ‘ when questioned even if it’s not !

I thought in a free society everyone was entitled to have an opinion. Yet you imply Christians should keep their mouths shut? Come on, admit it.

I said it was under attack. It began during the 60s and it has built momentum. Ignore it if you like.

I have implied nothing of the sort. Are you even reading my posts because you seem to be completely imagining me saying things.

Have you seen the YouTube channel One of Nine?

@Kellie45 yes I absolutely agree. Divorce, fatherless families, surrogacy, separating sex from marriage- oh I could go on. So far fallen from the natural law.

Abortion, Same sex marriage etc

Natural law, isn't that about crossing you legs and jumping up and down?

By whom and it what way?

Not gay couples getting married? Oh the horror!

No but you seem to be doing so to mine.

In what way?

It's because they can't use electricity and hence the dishwasher on shabbat and so I think there is a tendency to use disposables for an easy life... plus there are always tons of washing up during shabbat esp if you are hosting. My mother in law is an orthodox Jew but she is very environmentally aware and would never use a disposable so it's a choice really.

@onthefencesitter I thought that but they use them all the time (they do a lot of meal prep videos). Not just plates, but foil oven trays for every dish. Maybe as a pp pointed out it's just an American thing?

My MIL is religious and while it is a religious commandment to go forth and multiply, I feel it goes beyond that. I have never met an orthodox Jew who had babies specifically to replace the Holocaust victims (it's more of a defence towards rude people!) They have children because they love children and also because if everyone around you is having 3-5 kids, your idea of a 'normal' family is skewed. My DH's family was the smallest family in his primary school class (4 children). They also have different priorities, my MIL once told me she visited a wealthy friend who had a huge house but the kids were still sharing rooms and she felt the rooms looked Spartan. The main reason why many stop at 2 is because they feel they want to give kids their own rooms and bring them for lots of days out. Religious Jewish people don't factor finances as much when deciding how many kids to have. I mean the ultra orthodox don't prioritize education as much but most mainstream orthodox do prioritize education and also pay for weddings so I guess those are the 'important' things...They do lead simpler lives relative to their peers in the same income class (MIL had 3 kids in a 1 bedroom flat for 7 years and she didn't think that was unusual; she paid off her whole mortgage before moving and DH also thinks the same way). Also there are fewer opportunities for eating out due to kosher requirements (at least in the UK) so I guess people don't feel like they are missing out on that way. They also visit each other on shabbat (when you can't spend money) and the kids play together so I guess you need to spend less money to keep the kids entertained...

I know plenty of orthodox Jewish women with 3-6 kids who have careers and live in typical London homes. Female employment in Israel is also very high due to government subsidies on childcare (and it's also high for religions women). I live in a Jewish area and what struck me was the number of men wearing kippahs and hats pushing strollers and taking kids out. Even in ultra orthodox circles, the yeshiva day is structured such that the men have time for school pick up while the women work.

I am not orthodox, I am reform and I am a feminist who wants one child but I don't feel that the orthodox Jewish women I know who have many kids are any less feminist than I am or have a worse standard of living. Or that their kids would have fewer resources. It's often the opposite. They take very good care of their children.

@onthefencesitter I love your contribution on threads, thank you. Re overcrowding, I've read about families with 8 children living in a 2 bed flat in Stamford Hill not being unusual. Logistically how on earth does that work? Are they just very minimal and good with storage solutions? Or are homes chaotic? I wish some of them would start a YouTube channel, it would be fascinating!

That would be hard as most don't use the internet! my DH went to ultra orthodox homes when he was a kid, but he was at a chabad school (and I think they are more outward looking as some do still have normal jobs; i have a colleague who is chabad and I work in financial services, he has 7 kids). I think they have less 'stuff'; can you imagine how many fewer toys your kids would ask for if they didn't watch television or were exposed to advertising.

For me having that amount of children in such a small space is selfish though. It's probably fine when they are young, but what about when they are older? Having zero personal space must be very hard and sharing a bedroom when you are a teen must be very difficult. Ds had a friend in school who was one of 6 in a tiny 3 bed flat. The father was extremely handy and had built all sorts of storage solutions in hallways and each bedroom had triple bunks, but they had nowhere to study or even sit properly as the living room could only fit a 3 seater sofa.
It's probably different in ultra orthodox society though as they all probably live like this and don't know any different.

they actually need less space when they are older, i think. the boys are in yeshiva (and often they board in gateshead so are only home for the holidays) studying all day from 7 am to 9 pm so they come home to sleep. The girls marry at 18-21 and then they have their own apartments.

Its not like in secular society where its common for children to need a bedroom at university for the holidays or even live with their parents till their 20s. In mainstream regular orthodox families, i would say its uncommon to have 8 children in a flat or at least I don't know any. Its more like 3/4 kids in a 2 bed or 3 bed for the lower income members as they often choose to stay in London for the Jewish facilities rather than move out to the countryside for space like their secular counterparts.

my MIL as i said only had 3 kids in a 1 bed flat for 6 years in total (and the youngest was less than a year old when they moved). my DH was raised in a 3 bed Victorian terraced house with a double reception (so DH got the box room, his sister got the second reception room, the two youngest girls shared and there was a kitchen extension so they still had a dining room). I know another orthodox lady who lives in a 3 bed flat (a 2 bed maisonette with a loft conversion) but she only has 2 girls (one went to cambridge so i would say she probably had enough space to study).

its a different mindset though. They would probably view us as being selfish, prioritizing our individual comfort over parenting. They feel every child is a gift. Also its not like the other 'richer' families with 8 kids are living in 8 bedroom mansions in stamford hill, there aren't that many 8 bedroom houses there.. At most, they might live in a 4/5 bedroom house, perhaps 6 bedrooms at a push, based on the housing stock. SO everyone in stamford hill has to share if they are in a large family, regardless of their finances. And if you only had 1 or 2 children, people would think you have fertility problems...

@onthefencesitter yes you are right, it's a different mindset, and going back to the OP I think that's why society might be a bit more understanding of religious people who have larger families.

on imamother (mumsnet for religious women), there is also criticism of families who have 12 kids, can't afford school fees and have zero career plans on how they could conceivably afford them in the future(bigger issue in the USA as all faith schools are private); therefore expecting tuition subsides that are paid for by the people who can afford fees. So its not like religious women are completely oblivious to the issues surrounding having larger families (esp when you would require help from the community due to doing so). However, their idea of a 'big family' is different. Like people would not say anything about a family of 2 or 3 children....

I love the way you say condescendingly that ‘it’s not like the idea that religious women are completely oblivious….’ having perhaps read about a few who have large families and make the news. I can assure you that all of women I know who are religious have sensible size families they can cope with. As usual it’s a few people on the extremes you get the publicity and people like you just believe it’s the majority

This was specifically pertaining towards orthodox jewish families. in such communities, 6/7 is not considered extreme, its the norm. my DH was 1 of 4 and that is considered small. in a uk context, i don't think religious christian families have that many.

This thread seems to have gone a little off thread but to answer the OPs question regarding why some religious families have large families I am happy to share my experience. I was raised LDS/Mormon. We are heavily taught to aim for a marriage within the religion and that a woman’s most precious gift is that of motherhood. I got married fairly young to another member and very soon after we started out family.

back was I was 16 I was given a blessing which is supposed to be a direct blessing from god and shares so insights into your life. I was blessed that I would be a mother and have children.

We were also taught that we all lived before in a pre-existence. We were taught that there are children waiting to be born to us.

As such many believe there is a certain amount of children we are meant to have and therefore leave it up to god to decide.

There is also a social pressure that feels like the more children you are willing to have, to build up the kingdom of god, the better we are.

As such I had four children. I felt like I was listening to God and doing what I should. I didn’t see the environmental aspects as an issue because I believed that Jesus would come in the second coming and so my the way we treat the world wasn’t a huge issue.

I left the religion several years back, my religion vastly dictated many of the choices I made, especially the amount of children I had.