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Ukraine Invasion: Part 32

1000 replies

MagicFox · 03/10/2022 14:47

Gosh, that last one filled up quick! Welcome to 32, all πŸ‡ΊπŸ‡¦

OP posts:
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84
wonderfullife123 · 08/10/2022 17:01

Not convinced by this military arrests stuff. No verified sources reporting it. Centre of Moscow looks normal according to a couple of reporters on the ground.

katem98 · 08/10/2022 17:13

@TargusEasting2 I'm cacklingπŸ˜‚πŸ˜‚

MMBaranova · 08/10/2022 17:18

Sending in the Dzerzhinsky Division? I expect it has the name for a reason.

The bridge: there are two. Thrown up quickly (for such a structure) after the seizure of Crimea, the design has to allow for rail and road traffic while allowing ships to pass below to access the Sea of Azov.

The road bridge is four lane, so two each side. Because cars and trucks can manage it, it is low and then does a steep up and down to allow ships underneath.

The parallel rail bridge is double track, to allow trains in and out of Crimea to run on an interrupted schedule. The gradient is shallower to allow trains to operate, so for much of the route it is higher than the road bridge.

The damage today collapsed a section of the road bridge and set fire to fuel freight units up on the nearby rail bridge. My assumption is that one side of the road bridge will be able to run with one lane each way and the repairs to the rail bridge tracks, if necessary, will not take long.

It can be hit again of course.

The strike has clearly degraded functionality but has not removed it. The symbolic effect is considerable.

Ukraine Invasion: Part 32
MMBaranova · 08/10/2022 17:20

un-interrupted

Ukraine Invasion: Part 32
TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 08/10/2022 17:22

Here’s the Putin painting from The Times.

Ukraine Invasion: Part 32
MMBaranova · 08/10/2022 17:37

What I find interesting (and I am no expert in how structures collapse or how fairly nearby objects catch fire).

First, there are two sections of the road bridge down. See video here. At the end it shows a second area of road section collapse.

twitter.com/AZgeopolitics/status/1578639270801453056?s=20&t=t1fDLv3IKlaOli1kt_acgg

[I do not in any way vouch for the poster's take on anything, just point to the video.]

Second, the burning rail cars are up on a section across from a destroyed road span. There are the undamaged intervening road lanes and the gap between the bridges for a single explosion to cross.

Ijsbear · 08/10/2022 17:41

A good thread on separating the Good from the Bad online analysts, specially Twitter. He gives 8 tips and explains why, where useful.

twitter.com/james_rands/status/1578498263938117632

TargusEasting2 · 08/10/2022 18:20

MMBaranova · 08/10/2022 17:37

What I find interesting (and I am no expert in how structures collapse or how fairly nearby objects catch fire).

First, there are two sections of the road bridge down. See video here. At the end it shows a second area of road section collapse.

twitter.com/AZgeopolitics/status/1578639270801453056?s=20&t=t1fDLv3IKlaOli1kt_acgg

[I do not in any way vouch for the poster's take on anything, just point to the video.]

Second, the burning rail cars are up on a section across from a destroyed road span. There are the undamaged intervening road lanes and the gap between the bridges for a single explosion to cross.

@MMBaranova Your description of the bridges and their functions are valuable and make sense. Your local knowledge is important for us.

Everything I say next could be wrong, who knows. The angle of the picture suggests the bridges were targeted in the same spot for a reason. Both bridges were meant to go together. I do not buy there was an intention to leave the one vehicle lane open which Russia now claims they have salvaged. I have never heard of that mission scope before when it comes to destroying roads, canals or runways in war. Everything was meant to come down in that single place, but one part did not. This kind of failure is normal in war though.

The strike was at the Crimean peninsular end. It was 2.56 miles along the road, east, then south-east from the natural shoreline. I believe it was to within 100 metres of -

  • 45 degrees, 18'15.48 North
  • 36 degrees, 30'34.39 East
Looking at the topography of the land and the water from the Sea of Azov into the Black Sea, the strike point was where the sea depth is greatest. I am not sure what to make of that, except that the sea depth is enough to accommodate submarines and deep tankers, but debris may change that. I do not however believe submarines operate in the Sea of Azov, but Russian grain ships and smaller chemical tankers may do. The port of Temryukskiy is the only thing I can see of any merit in that sea, but it does not do much. It could be coincidence. Nothing to read into it.

Looking at the destruction, my wager is on a shaped charge in a rebuilt lorry chassis, designed to strike down into the bridge to destroy the road section. Whether there was another on to do the same the other side, which never detonated, I do not know. The IRA Bishopsgate bombing in 1993 had a mere 'grab bag' size of explosives designed to create a pressure wave to destroy buildings. Smaller, shaped charges the size of a matchbox can blow an airliner into two in the sky so long as the pressure is in the right place.

We will only know what went on in due course and after this war has ended.

TargusEasting2 · 08/10/2022 18:24

Oh and Glory to Ukraine

**

RedToothBrush · 08/10/2022 18:31

Twitter suggesting Shoigu and Gerasimov have been purged.

Not seeing much in the way of credible sources, but given today's attack its hard to think there isn't going to be a scapegoat.

blueshoes · 08/10/2022 18:42

Loving the bridge talk.

@TargusEasting2 you mentioned a shaped charge in a rebuilt lorry chassis, designed to strike down into the bridge to destroy the road section. How about a shaped charge (erm, had to google what a shaped charge is) delivered via on boat or boat drone underneath the road section of the bridge. It was strong enough to destroy the road section (which was lower) but not enough to strike at the higher rail section. Perhaps the detonation was remotely timed to match the passing of the ammo train above so as to ignite the higher section.

This is pure speculation. Very James Bond.

RedToothBrush · 08/10/2022 18:46

ian bremmer AT ianbremmer
chinese leaders reaching out to their japanese/european counterparts in recent days emphasizing they do not support putin’s war.

xi surely regretting that feb 4 statement with putin.

This guy is respected. No idea who he is, but he has some heavy duty journalists (many BBC), ambassadors and MPs who follow him.

notimagain · 08/10/2022 18:51

Smaller, shaped charges the size of a matchbox can blow an airliner into two in the sky so long as the pressure is in the right place.

Well true but for completeness (and I know you know this but others won't) the issue with airliner structures is that the pressure hull is very thin, you have a pressure differential of potentially anything up to half a bar at cruising levels and you have a decent of dynamic air pressure...If something does go bang near the aircraft skin and makes a hole it's then often the pressure differential and often aerodynamic forces that can potentially unzip the structure, not the force of the explosives, shaped charge or not..

It's v interesting to see results of trials done pressurised vs. unpressurised hulls using the same device and witnessing the difference in the scale of damage.

Igotjelly · 08/10/2022 18:51

RedToothBrush · 08/10/2022 18:46

ian bremmer AT ianbremmer
chinese leaders reaching out to their japanese/european counterparts in recent days emphasizing they do not support putin’s war.

xi surely regretting that feb 4 statement with putin.

This guy is respected. No idea who he is, but he has some heavy duty journalists (many BBC), ambassadors and MPs who follow him.

Wow this is big news! Not before fucking time though!

MissConductUS · 08/10/2022 19:00

The WSJ has coverage of the attack online. I'll bold the interesting parts about the extent of the damage and informed speculation on how it was done. I'm pleased that rail portion may be out of use due to the effect of the heat from the fire and that rerouting the rail traffic is very problematic.

Crimea Bridge Explosion Disrupts Crucial Supply Route for Russian Forces - Russian officials blame Kyiv; Ukrainian officials have repeatedly threatened to hit the 12-mile bridge

A major explosion severely damaged the bridge connecting Russia’s mainland to the occupied Crimean Peninsula, disrupting traffic on a crucial artery for the supply of fuel, military equipment and food to Russian troops fighting to hold ground in southern Ukraine.

The bridge, opened by President Vladimir Putin to great fanfare in 2018, was meant to symbolize the might of the Russian state and the permanence of Russia’s annexation of the peninsula four years earlier. Russia even released a feature movie about its construction.

Russia’s investigations committee said three people died after the early-morning explosion on Saturday of a truck on the bridge’s roadway next to a supply train that was carrying fuel. Some demolition experts who analyzed footage of the blast questioned the Russian version and said that the explosion must have come from under the bridge, caused either by an explosives-laden boat, manned or unmanned, or by shaped charges placed by divers.

Tony Spamer, a former British Army expert on bridge demolitions, said a truck bomb would have created a hole in the middle of bridge but wouldn’t have been sufficient to cut the reinforcing bar and cause the structure to collapse. β€œYou’ve got to attack the whole width of the bridge. Looking at it, it looks like it was attacked from underneath. It’s a monster job,” he said.

Russia scrambled to launch ferry services as an alternative, a move made difficult by stormy weather. Crimean authorities said passenger traffic resumed Saturday afternoon on the two surviving lanes of the four-lane road bridge, and rail services should be restarted soon. Civilian flights to Crimea have been suspended since February.

David MacKenzie, a senior technical director at COWI Holding A/S, a Denmark-based company that designs and builds some of the world’s largest and longest bridges, said it would take several months for Russia to be able to fully restore the destroyed spans of the bridge, and that the ban on truck traffic is caused by concerns that the bridge’s substructure has also been damaged. Weight restrictions are also likely to be imposed on the railway bridge should it reopen, he said.

β€œA quite significant fire has taken place, and it will have an impact on the strength of the steel that is there,” Mr. MacKenzie said. β€œThere is a very good chance that the steel on the top of the deck may well have been heated to temperatures well above the limits that the steel takes.”

Russian officials in Crimea were quick to blame Kyiv. β€œThe Ukrainian vandals have managed to reach the Crimean bridge with their bloodied hands,” the speaker of Crimea’s legislature, Vladimir Konstantinov, wrote on social media. Other than ordering a commission of inquiry, Mr. Putin has so far remained silent on the incident, even as Russian lawmakers and politicians called for retribution.

While Ukrainian officials have repeatedly threatened to hit the strategic bridge in the past, there was no direct claim of responsibility from Kyiv. Senior Ukrainian officials, however, on Saturday expressed delight at the blow to Russian prestige.

Russia’s annexation of Crimea in 2014 is considered illegal by virtually the entire international community, and Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky has repeatedly stated that he seeks to reclaim all Ukrainian territories seized by Russia.

Russia in recent days moved to annex four other regions of Ukraine where fierce fighting continues, while Mr. Putin ordered the mobilization of hundreds of thousands of reservists to shore up the crumbling Russian front lines, prompting an exodus of Russian men to neighboring countries.

Moscow on Saturday for the first time named an overall commander for the faltering campaign in Ukraine, Gen. Sergei Surovikin. Previously the head of Russia’s Aerospace Forces, he was this summer identified by the Russian Ministry of Defense as head of Group South, the military grouping that led the fighting to seize the southeastern city of Mariupol. He is a veteran of the Chechen campaign and a former commander of Russian forces in Syria.

Russian nationalists and personalities such as Chechen leader Ramzan Kadyrov and Yevgeni Prigozhin, owner of the Wagner private military company, have blamed a rival general, Col. Gen. Aleksandr Lapin, commander of Group Center, for recent defeats that saw Russia lose thousands of square miles in the Kharkiv, Donetsk and Luhansk regions. There was no word about Gen. Lapin’s fate.

Crimea, the home of Russia’s Black Sea fleet, has also become a focus for the Ukrainian war effort as its forces press farther south, especially in Kherson, where dozens of villages have been taken in recent days. Kyiv has attacked several high-profile targets in Crimea in recent months, striking a major Russian air base in Saky and a railway junction near the town of Dzhankoy. It has also used American-made Himars missiles to hit the Antonivsky bridge in Kherson, a main lifeline for Russian troops in the area.

The bridge over the Kerch Strait accounted for the bulk of fuel and food supplies to Crimea and represented the only way of traveling to and from the peninsula for ordinary Russians.

Some 50,000 Russian tourists are stranded in Crimea, according to the association of Russia’s tour operators. Authorities have asked resorts to extend the stay of tourists in the region, for which the businesses would be fully compensated, it said.

Long lines formed at gas stations in Crimea after the blast. The governor of Sevastopol on Saturday said he had imposed food rationing of 3 kilograms of bread or flour per person, equivalent to 6.6 pounds, and banned filling jerrycans with gas to prevent hoarding, but he quickly lifted the restrictions.

The peninsula has enough fuel for more than a month and enough food for two months, according to the Russian-appointed leader of Crimea, Sergey Aksyonov. Repair work on the bridge will start immediately after the investigation concludes, he said.

Footage aired by Russian media from the Kerch Strait area showed that, as the fuel train burned on the railway track, two lanes of the highway caved into the sea, while the other two lanes appeared structurally damaged. Mr. Aksyonov didn’t provide a timeline for when the bridge might be fully restored.

The 12-mile bridge, built at a cost of nearly $4 billion, was the main logistics connection for the peninsula and for the parts of Ukraine’s Kherson and regions captured by Moscow in February and March.

Other road links with Crimea are available to Russia through occupied parts of southern Ukraine and the Donbas area in the east. However, they go through areas where Ukrainian insurgents operate or where Ukrainian artillery remains within range. There is no viable alternative connection by rail, the preferred transportation method of the Russian military. On Saturday, Ukraine used Himars missiles to destroy a railway hub used by the Russian military in the southern part of the Donetsk region.

Oleg Kryuchkov, an aide to Mr. Aksyonov, the Crimean leader, said food and fuel will continue to be provided to Crimea via this land corridor. Mr. Aksyonov called for calm. Russian authorities said a car ferry service was set to launch Sunday and food and heating stations for drivers were being deployed at the entrance to the bridge.

Russian officials in recent months repeatedly warned of severe consequences should Kyiv try to strike the bridge. Russia’s former President Dmitry Medvedev said in July that hitting Crimea would cause β€œan immediate judgment day.”

Ukraine’s resilient air defenses, however, make it impossible for Russian aircraft to go on bombing runs deep inside the country. While Russia has been using its dwindling reserve of cruise missiles and Iranian-made kamikaze drones to carry out such strikes on infrastructure targets for months, it hasn’t been able to cause any significant disruption to Ukraine’s military campaign. Western military analysts say that, by now, Russia doesn’t have much of an ability to escalate the conflict with conventional weapons, stirring concerns that Mr. Putin might opt to use tactical nuclear weaponsβ€”something the Russian leader has hinted at in recent weeks.

Pro-Kremlin analysts such as Alexei Dzermant said the apparent attack on the bridge showed that Ukraine was waging an β€œall-out war” while Russia so far had been engaged in a β€œhalfhearted war.” Mr. Dzermant, who is affiliated with the Center for the Study and Development of Continental Integration in Eurasia, a think tank in Minsk, said Russia’s current approach to the conflict would lead to further setbacks.

Mr. Konstantinov, of the Crimea State Council, said the attack by Ukraine would clearly show Russians β€œwith whom and for what we are fighting.”

Some Russian analysts said it was likely that Mr. Putin would play down the incident since the strike didn’t succeed in completely destroying the bridge. Others said that by showing its hand and just damaging the structure, Kyiv had provided Moscow with a chance to better prepare for a further attack on the bridge.

On VKontakte, Russia’s version of Facebook, there was an eruption of anti-Ukraine posts, with many calling on Mr. Putin to take stronger action against Kyiv.

β€œShall we just shake a finger at them again?” asked a man who identified himself as Alexander Dorohkhin on VKontakte. β€œMaybe it’s time to test a Sarmat [missile] in Kyiv.”

There was also desperation in a query from Anna Voropinova as she asked on a Crimean VKontakte group page β€œhow now to return to the mainland from Crimea ???????”

β€œWhere to get information?” she asked. β€œWhat to do?”

In Kyiv, meanwhile, there was celebration. The Ukrainian mail service issued a special commemorative stamp, and Kyivites lined up Saturday afternoon to take photos by a billboard that had previously been installed on the city’s main avenue. It depicted a mock-up of explosions hitting the bridge.
People in Kyiv take selfies in front of artwork depicting explosions on the Crimean bridge.Photo: Vladyslav Musiienko/Reuters

TargusEasting2 · 08/10/2022 19:04

blueshoes · 08/10/2022 18:42

Loving the bridge talk.

@TargusEasting2 you mentioned a shaped charge in a rebuilt lorry chassis, designed to strike down into the bridge to destroy the road section. How about a shaped charge (erm, had to google what a shaped charge is) delivered via on boat or boat drone underneath the road section of the bridge. It was strong enough to destroy the road section (which was lower) but not enough to strike at the higher rail section. Perhaps the detonation was remotely timed to match the passing of the ammo train above so as to ignite the higher section.

This is pure speculation. Very James Bond.

The span is a weak point and because of engineering it has tensile strength. I am sceptical about a boat blowing upwards against gravity having the adhesive capture to bring it down. Not impossible though, but most munitions are designed to use gravity downwards in the delivery and the execution. I think @notimagain has the word on this though, being an ex military pilot.

It is easier these days to design a flatbed truck to hold and deploy explosives. I was looking at a coach only yesterday travelling alongside me on the motorway (the chassis is the same as a truck) and realised for the first time in decades, how much unused space there is. Useable for munitions of course and plenty of spaces for shaped charges.

Another factor not lost on me is the probable weakness in the structure itself. Who built the bridge? What was the budget and was 75% of it siphoned off to a yacht or two in those years after 2014? Most probable.

The detonation of the road and the train / track are, in my view, not coincidental. There are forces working behind the scene and in my view there are three main protagonists assisting Ukraine. There is some remarkable similarities in the execution of some of these attacks when compared to historical events.

As an aside, I get the impression much of these initiatives are 28-56 days in the making. Then we hear of them on Twitter before even the Kremlin does.

Who knows what is going on, but whatever it is, its happening in the USA. Obama, Trump, Biden etc are mouthpieces only.

Live in this moment. There are some massive geopolitical changes coming. Europe in particular could change massively within 20 years. It could be 50% larger with all that entails.

blueshoes · 08/10/2022 19:18

Thank you @TargusEasting2 @notimagain @MMBaranova for bridge chat. I am delighted at such a huge morale boost for Ukraine.

Waiting for the inevitable evacuation of a large number of Russians from Crimea. A birthday gift to Putin that will keep giving.

notimagain · 08/10/2022 19:22

@TargusEasting2

I think @notimagain has the word on this though, being an ex military pilot.

Not really, blowing things up on the ground wasn't really my specialist aisle πŸ™„I dabbled with that side of things at a couple of points in my military flying career but most of the time I was involved in (potentially anyway) blowing things up that were airborne....

blueshoes · 08/10/2022 19:22

RedToothBrush · 08/10/2022 18:46

ian bremmer AT ianbremmer
chinese leaders reaching out to their japanese/european counterparts in recent days emphasizing they do not support putin’s war.

xi surely regretting that feb 4 statement with putin.

This guy is respected. No idea who he is, but he has some heavy duty journalists (many BBC), ambassadors and MPs who follow him.

Very interesting. Hoping that China has finally had enough of Putin.

At Xi's first face-to-face meeting with Putin since the invasion at the Shanghai Cooperation Organization summit in Uzbekistan (15 September), Putin acknowledged that Xi has expressed 'concerns' over Russia's war in Ukraine. We don't know what those concerns are. Perhaps Xi asked Putin to de-escalate but instead Putin then rapidly went on to hold referendums to annex 4 partially occupied regions in Ukraine (23 September ) and then announced partial mobilisation in Russia (21 September), all the while losing badly to Ukraine on the battlefield. We never found out whether Xi knew that Russia was going to invade during the Beijing Olympics in February. Maybe Xi did not and this is the final straw.

Hoping that Xi realises that Putin is an unreliable friend and is now putting limits on their friendship. If so, this could be yet another game changing development.

MissConductUS · 08/10/2022 19:31

Who knows what is going on, but whatever it is, its happening in the USA. Obama, Trump, Biden etc are mouthpieces only.

If you don't know what is going on, how do you know that it's happening in the USA?

Greenshake · 08/10/2022 19:32

There is so much going on today. Once again, thank you very much for these threads and all those who contribute/provide invaluable insights. This is now my absolute first β€˜go-to’ in terms of research, balance and quality of content.

DrBlackbird · 08/10/2022 19:33

MagicFox · 08/10/2022 09:31

@DrBlackbird this article addresses your questions pretty well I think:

jacobin.com/2022/10/ukraine-russia-putin-nuclear-weapons-risk/

Thanks @MagicFox I’ll have a read, but the short answer seems maybe, but it’s still a relatively low risk. Hopefully anyhow.

MMBaranova · 08/10/2022 19:45

Bridge traffic.

Grab from a video from this evening in Crimea. Single file of vehicles on the inside lane of the undamaged side.

Ukraine Invasion: Part 32
DrBlackbird · 08/10/2022 19:52

SpaceX is blocking Starlink on purpose so that the Russian military does not use it

After the liberation of Lyman in the Donetsk region, a mass grave was discovered there: 180 bodies were found in one of the graves. Among the inhabitants of the city killed by the Russians were small children

I don’t like Elon Musk’s game playing. Perhaps someone could show him photos of these mass graves to remind him that the war was not the will of these children?

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