Were you taught social niceties as a child?

[tomorrowalready]

This may seem strange but watching the Queen's funeral reminded me of something I have been curious about. For background I am a woman, over 60, my mother died young and my father was unsocial to say the least. Relatively recently I noticed that many if not most women automatically reach behind and make a smoothing motion over their hips and thighs when sitting down even when wearing trousers. I have only become aware of this from watching television hence my mention of QE's funeral coverage. I notice Charlotte did it on getting into their car on leaving the funeral and her mother also. I honestly have no idea if most women do this in daily life or how they know to do it. Presumably taught by mothers/female relatives but has it always been so? I mean were others my age consciously taught and passed it on or has it developed more recently? I never understood about handshaking either: when and how to do it, who starts and finishes it , why so much significance is assigned to it.

To be clear I am not worried about this just curious if parents generally consciously teach such niceties and how they know how to do it.

Also op if you struggle with eye contact, try focusing on the point between their eyes instead, or just above. Most people won't be able to tell and its more comfortable for you.

When I’m at a dinner or similar I usually ask the person next to me what they have planned for the weekend or ask what they did the previous weekend. This will usually give some indication of their interests; for example they might say they went to watch a play/sport and this gives at least another couple of questions to ask.

Mostly I read about manners from the Chalet School books, despite my bog standard comp school. I do remember learning how to curtesy at school but that might have been a ballet thing rather than a manners thing.

OP, you at 12 buying a present with your bus money and walking to the party in the rain... I'm so sorry you had to do that. FWIW I think it shows that a) you were sensitive and aware, and people will always respond positively to that so the niceties matter much less, and b) that you were operating without a support system and no wonder some things are mysterious without a kindly adult guide when you were young

As someone who finds small talk (quite) easy, I suggest only having one or two stock questions up your sleeve. It can turn you inwards and ironically make you less good at it. Instead, remember the rule about getting them to talk, and then focus on them with genuine curiosity and interest. You will find yourself getting to know them much better and having much more connecting conversations, if you ask them what they thought of the speaker you've just heard / where they got those fabulous shoes / how long they've known Fred / whether they have a theory about what's actually in the sandwiches.

I don’t remember being “taught” officially but I learned through observation and exposure. My DD is just 3 and she absorbs everything and already I notice her copying what I say and do in social situations. So I think we teach our children by example. If you don’t have the example it is a huge disadvantage as you have to then actively learn it (or not).

I have a friend who had complicated family and was brought up in care. You can see the things she doesn’t “know” instinctively. Not that I give a flying fig if she doesn’t follow societal norms, but it is certainly a disadvantage.

My DH went to very posh public school and he has a way of doing things that is far more natural and confident than me (I had a middle
class upbringing but went to an average comp whereas his grandmother was a debutante).

Yes, I was but not in any overly rigid way, just reminded to be polite and respectful. How to behave publically and at dinner etc.

It's not all positive, as a result, I had far too much respect for seniority, either those older than me or higher standing at work and have had to re thinking some of it, i.e. respect should be earned rather than assumed etc.

I also double check things out of politeness or keep people updated on matters where I probably don't need to. Working on it but it's difficult to relearn what has been ingrained since childhood. Even now, my parents admit, they might have over done it.

Thanks Gobbolino, for thinking of me and how I could learn. As I mentioned in some previous posts I do feel I have learnt quite a bit about social interactions. I think because I live alone I am very conscious of physical contact between strangers hence my ease with lockdown. I used to spend more time with Muslim friends and others who of course have different etiquette rules and expectations some of which I found easier to manage. The whole different times and different cultures things fascinates me and is shown in the little things so much.

Both my grandmother and my mother had been at convent schools so they were both taught particular forms of social manners which were very of their time - and they were both keen on teaching me! 😂 My grandmother’s version was a rather fussy kind of lower middle class pre-war manners, and my mother’s a sort of postwar middle middle class version, so they sometimes contradicted which was a bit confusing… My grandmother was big on things like saying grace, pardon, lots of rather coy euphemisms for things regarded as slightly shocking, doilies, crinkling your little finger when holding a teacup and so on! My mother was not bothered about that kind of stuff, but was very strict about things like being polite to adults, knowing how to greet people, never interrupting her when she was having a conversation with another adult, table manners, saying “thank you for having me”, addressing all adults as Mr or Mrs etc.

In case you’re wondering — no, my grandfather or father did not get involved in the teaching of any social niceties or behaviour (!)

I also remember that it was also not always just parents, but for example Brownies, where you had to do eg the Hostess badge all about manners, greeting a guest and serving tea and so on. The Brownie Guide Handbook was very big on 1950s manners for children well up to the end of the century!

Interestingly as an adult I ended up working in an industry with a lot of very upper-middle and lower-upper class people, and then had to learn a whole new set of Mitford-style “U” manners and conventions. I end up code-switching between them though, depending on who I’m talking to and where I am! But I does help for the old confidence to be able to meet some genuine poshos and still know what to say 😂

Or to be at a formal dinner and not worry that you’re getting things wrong. (My top tip! A genuine posho often does not know what they are doing either at a formal dinner or event, but instead they just loudly say “I have no idea which fork to use! Someone must tell me! Do YOU know?”, all with total unembarrassment.)

So much of manners was and still is (though to a lesser extent thankfully) about social class. Some of it is about being polite and putting others at ease. Some of it is also about class codes. Thankfully that aspect is fading a bit now — those silly etiquette columns in papers like the Mail where they get some toff to explain that it’s “napkin not serviette” now look really daft, and rightly so. So I would not worry about learning social niceties. Just watch other people and then do what seems to you to be considerate and polite and then don’t worry about it.

Thank you so much for saying that. It was true to an extent. My family life was fraught mainly because my Dad expected my teenage sister to take over as mother and housekeeper but she did not want to and had no concept of the emotional demands of the role , unsurprisingly. I did get a lot of good examples from my father, for example, he was honest and devoted, he never made a personal remark about anyone, he always thanked my sister for cooking, he spoke to people outside the house very politely also but that contradicted the unspoken don't speak to strangers. Later on my sister was the first in our family to go to university and also later started to look into whether she may have had Asperger's as it was then called. She was very scientific, detached and sharp, not easy to live with or even talk to.

I did get a lot of good examples from my father, for example, he was honest and devoted, he never made a personal remark about anyone, he always thanked my sister for cooking, he spoke to people outside the house very politely also but that contradicted the unspoken don't speak to strangers.

Honestly, OP, your father sounds like a better model for manners than teaching any set of social niceties. He sounds lovely.

Thinking about it I have generally been lucky enough to be treated with politeness by almost everyone I have met including our local street drinkers and homeless people. I am sure that is down to luck and social isolation rather than anything else. Interestingly the most purposeful social put down was many years ago when I had left home and mixing with more middle class people. A friend introduced me to her brother-in-law, a fairly posh man, and I said, "Pleased to meet you" to his how do you do. As I remember he sneered something like "oh are you really". My friend later explained the only 'proper' response is how do you do. So I have been lucky really, just very conscious of my own social limitations. As I have said I feel I have learned a lot from watching TV but can sometimes feel overwhelmed by even that. Oh yes I forgot used to read all the Eng Lit that teaches and shows the British class system in action. Also gave me a great vocabulary which I do sometimes use superciliously.

Thank you, ideas mirrour, he was. Honestly when I read some posts here from mothers who get no support from the fathers of their children I am astonished. My father demonstrated that if you have children you are responsible for them, no question, no excuses. I was shocked when people would ask who looked after us after my mother died. He may have made mistakes as do we all but he also gave us his all without being so rude as to tell us he was doing it.

Ugh, how rude the brother in law was to say that!

In my experience it’s only upper-middle/lower-upper people over about 50 who still say “how do you do” rather than “nice/pleased/lovely to meet you”. Younger than that, and they don’t really know or care. “Media London” social usage is not that formal or upper-middle any more, so most of the time nobody cares about ”U” greetings any more as far as I can tell.

I’m a bit of an amateur anthropologist about the British class system so love observing these things, but always treat them with a heavy dose of salt 😂 You get rude and polite people in every social class/background/walk of life!

and mixing with more middle class people. A friend introduced me to her brother-in-law, a fairly posh man, and I said, "Pleased to meet you" to his how do you do. As I remember he sneered something like "oh are you really". My friend later explained the only 'proper' response is how do you do.

You need to remember that one of the rudest things you can do is to point out ignorance of manners or etiquette in someone else. This is commonly known among those who've been brought up with such 'niceties'...The brother in law was incredibly rude and betrayed his own lack of manners.

The most famous example of how to treat others, is when the queen hosted a banquet and a foreign guest drank from the finger bowl thinking it was a type of soup. The queen did the same. Not only did she not point out his error, she made sure he didn't feel uncomfortable.

So next time someone attempts to put you down like he did, hold your high and remember that the only people they put down are themselves.

My sisters & I were taught many of these things by our DM.
She even taught us correct posture by having us walk up & down the living room with catalogues/books on our heads. That's still my party trick 😂
DM wasn't posh as she came from a working class background but did aspire to greater things.
Other things I've learnt from watching people in real life & on tv.

Though one thing DM failed to get out out of me is my habit of using 'ain't' & 'innit' 😂

My parents taught us many however all were reinforced at school, I remember different teachers correcting or requesting certain behaviour. Same is true of our children's schools now.

Sorry I have wandered into personal reminiscing. More under the 'niceties' topic, I had friends who were taught the books on head walking and I do remember eating in the street being frowned upon and our secondary school trying to stop pupils going out to the chippy at lunch time on grounds it let the uniform down to eat outside. I still do feel it's not quite right though some people have no alternative.
School did also try to teach table manners though I have never been able to use knife and fork in 'correct' hands and still don't see why it should matter.
We also had one teacher who was very keen to teach us hygiene in difficult circumstances , i.e. without access to clean water. Perhaps the kind of thing they teach in guides or scouts? I never joined. Again watching the Queen's funeral reminded me of my RAF brother teaching us how to march and salute and polish his boots but dad always polished our shoes for us. Oh and we were also taught to curtsey just in case though that may also be connected to the country and Scottish dancing classes we had. Do schools still do them?

Yes, looking back there was an extraordinary amount of teaching of ladylike behaviour at home. Table manners, how to greet someone, "How do you do?" table setting, how to pass dishes, eating with a knife and fork, leaving said knife and fork on your plate at a certain angle to indicate you had finished eating, and on and on and on. Hand shaking, writing thank you notes, never taking the last piece of anything, no giggling...

At school we did elocution and deportment as part of the primary curriculum, LAMDA exams annually... We were forbidden from sitting with our legs crossed, and also 'criss cross applesauce' on the floor- I don't remember any floor time at all in school even at age four or five. I still can't physically sit like that on the floor, though I do cross my legs while sitting on a chair, etc.

I much prefer people who have the social niceties than over bearing boorish types. I mean basics such as please/thank you/how are you. Not bothered if you can use the right fork or tear a bread roll/cut it. Manners cost nothing and isn't class dependent imo. It makes life and interactions much more pleasant.

This summer my daughter aged 7 was chatting to a lady we met on the beach and her toddler. I was so proud when she told both me and DH what a treasure she is.

@mathanxiety what is criss cross apple sauce? Not heard that before!

Same. My mum was very big on table manners; and 'the correct way to hold your knife and fork' not like a pencil.

I recall being shocked (and slightly repulsed) that our children's headmaster didn't shake their hands when giving out certificates - and this was a conventional, averagely strict school. It put me right off him. I felt he was not preparing the children to learn how to accept success for later in life, just shoving a certificate at them.

We had to stand up when any adult entered the classroom, and remain standing until told to be seated. Private primary (Dublin).

It's sitting cross-legged, or tailor-style, @LemongrassLollipop.
Criss cross applesauce is what my American DCs call it. I think they spent most of their early years in school sitting like that on the floor. Nobody in charge in their school was bothered by the unladylike flashing of knickers it involved.

@tomorrowalready

oh yes we were taught so many things.

like the ones mentioned

Def. taught the use of cutlery and where it was placed. Good manners, when I was child standing up or sitting on Nan's knee on a train or bus for someone older. Cleanliness, honesty (I did steal an uninflated balloon once when shopping with mum) doing what I was told to do (mostly) and doing chores before the parents arrived home from work each afternoon.

Def. NOT taught small talk, not how to keep my hair under control or maintaining a personal standard of presentation. I never had to call my Aunts and Uncles A & U, not sure why as we had a neighbour and he was ''uncle brian'' and everyone else Mr & Mrs.

Low self esteem too, so I don't think I was taught much self appreciation and love. Although I was loved despite being told I wasn't planned ... eek moment for a child to hear.