Crown Jewels looted from Africa

[Birdy1066]

The massive diamond in the sceptre of the monarch is the Great Star of Africa, 530.2 carats . It was discovered in 1905 and ‘gifted’ to the British royal family by the then colonial powers.
Activists in South Africa are now demanding that it is returned. I absolutely agree with them. Amid all the pomp and ceremony of the recent funeral everyone turns a blind eye to the fact that many of the gems in the Crown Jewels were looted from Africa in one form or another under colonialism.
Africa is NOT poor. But it’s peoples are poor because it’s mineral wealth and massive riches have been torn out of it and shipped elsewhere by western countries.
The majority of the British press couldn’t give a toss about the colonialist legacy of Great Britain but it is crucially important that the issue is examined and reparations made.
Those glittering diamonds, emeralds and rubies so much admired and set in the crowns and gaudy trinkets of the rich were taken out the dirt of Africa and dipped in the blood of its people.
At the very least it’s time they were returned.
Do you agree ?

Learning from the past is a starting point, but there’s no indication of that happening anytime too. Failing to learn is the error. The unwillingness to learn is a fatal blow. It’s like diplomatic suicide.

It seems the request for reparations comes from people who have learned the history and realised “this is wrong and something needs to be done about it”. They’ve jumped the gun or are a few steps ahead based on their learning.

Reparations is one solution, but a meaningful lesson, apology and no longer showcasing stolen/looted goods on the crown is another viable option too.

The Koh-I-Noor can’t be repatriated. That’s the problem. It came with a kingdom that has since been partitioned into two different countries. The ten year old boy has no descendants. All of this sounds like strategy, not accident.

Indeed. Also I note on these kinds of threads and elsewhere, assertions such as Britain is the sixth wealthiest and influential country in the world and should use its wealth to make up for all the wrongs it engaged in the past. For example give back all it took and more ,welcome and assimilate all comers because we can afford it and have constant reparations to make, while simultaneously being told we are a declining power, weak, racist society who no one respects and so it is now essential to curry favour with better more powerful nations to protect our future selves. Which is it? And given our precarious future, is it wise to keep off loading all our wealth in support of others?

Learning from the past is useful for the future.

If the history causes the British population to feel guilt, then that’s their own issue to deal with and grow from. Not everyone feels guilt, some think it’s just how things are in attaining power and wealth. Some even believe it was a wonderful thing to do and get away with.

But learning the history is important. It means prime ministers are less likely to go into countries like India thinking there was a ‘special relationship’ during the empire days. Being informed about the other side and how they feel, as uncomfortable as it might be, is useful for diplomacy.

Reparations are not the only solution either. Learning, apology and not continuing to adorn the crown with looted/stolen jewels is another viable solution that doesn’t necessarily require reparations.

What is the statute of limitations on raided wealth by colonialists? The Romans came to Britain for its land and mineral wealth, not to mention slaves. Do we seek reparations from the Italians? No, because that would be ridiculous.

You could argue that the some of the people from the Empire have benefited from colonialism themselves because of mass immigration to the UK.

Reparations are a suggested solution (one of the last steps of a process).

The first step is learning why there is a grievance. Assessing the evidence to check if the grievance has merit. Then taking it from there.

’Reparations’ is just a buzz word to get a reaction out of priory. What’s really sought is peoples’ understanding.

The problem is the unwillingness to learn. And that’s like the fatal blow for a diplomatic suicide.

*out of people, not priory

Erm. How about they wouldn’t have needed to emigrate had their homelands not been colonised?

You're assuming life was easy for immigrants in the UK. Do you think they didn’t have to put up racism? A question about belonging? Identity crisis?

The Koh-I-Noor was taken from a place that was modernised and also richer than most of Europe. They didn’t need to emigrate to the UK until their wealth was looted and they suffered poverty (that wasn’t present before).

They’ve worked hard and earned their fruits. The better life is more likely down to cultural work ethic. Education is very important and highly valued as a way out of poverty and discrimination.

Such an interesting thread

whilst in the U.K. the new PM and chancellor are going to bring back bankers bonuses. Risky behaviours and rich getting richer. Whereas those on benefits will have static benefits and told must try harder. Workers rights will be shredded too once EU legislation is removed. NHS and education severely under funded but there’s a private system of can afford to pay. Well off will be ok and get more wealth, poorer won’t. Gap will widen

You can't begin to compare the UK to Zimbabwe though. Even given what you've said, which is not untrue, the UK is still a wealthy paradise by comparison and even if things worsen there's no way it will become even a fraction as bad as Zimbabwe in our lifetimes.

To the rightful owners

Invited by the U.K. to bolster its work force

Sure but some of them would have been given social housing and other benefits and had a better standard of living possibly

My dad wasn’t given social housing. He was a qualified professional.

Uk carries out a recruitment drive. Encouraging these professional doctors, engineers etc to come settle in the U.K. My dad came and couldn’t get a room. No blacks, no Irish, no dogs.

So no it wasnt easy. They were sold a lie.

I'm not saying it was easy for them. My dgps were immigrants

It wasn’t easy
it wasn’t better

And this idea that the U.K. can hold onto stolen / “gifted” items as theirs countries could to possibly look after them is appalling. But at least some moves are being made to return spoils. Hopefully that will continue or form part of diplomatic discussion. Rather than tough it’s ours we are keeping it.

Not from the place the Koh-I-Noor was taken. That was already modernised and wealthy in its own right.

Things like social housing and benefits are pittance compared to what was taken and the lives that were destroyed through colonisation.

Would you swap a home and wealth that is yours for social housing and benefits that are dependent on the whims of the government?

Rubbish.

Yeah but no one really wants understanding though do they, what they want is cold hard cash because greed is rife amongst people no matter what colour they are.

Terrible things happened in Africa but Africans were also involved in kidnapping and selling people, the white people created the very high demand and were involved in higher numbers but it was about power and money and it was a complete abuse of those things by both blacks and whites. The role of Africans in slavery though seems to be completely glossed over as inconvenient. The ability to abuse power or to have abused power is really not limited to white people.

Slavery was everywhere through the ages almost everyone has been slaves or slave holders at some point in history, it was happening in Africa before historical records even began - it was only the scale of it that changed when it went trans-atlantic. We can't turn back time, we can't give the US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand back to the native populations that they rightfully belong to. Far, far worse things are still happening right now to people than having had a diamond looted from the earth of their country over a hundred years ago. Giving it back won't change the world or make it up to those who died procuring it.

Slavery is still going on in the world, India and China have the highest numbers but nearly 50 million people are currently estimated to be living in modern slavery in the world.

So no I don't think we should give it back because we cannot possibly give back everything and right all the wrongs that were part of history, we did not make those choices and were not responsible for those things and the people who were, both black and white are long dead. But if what the people want is understanding then there is a lot more understanding, we understand that forced labour, forced marriage etc are terrible things and are taken very seriously by the police.

But slavery is still going on in Africa, children were found to be working diamond mines in Sierra Leone and Zimbabwe, the US department for Labour found that 74 African countries had a significant incidence of child and forced labour.
So the people want understanding but what I want to understand is why this is still being allowed to go on and why people are more concerned about a diamond from over a hundred years ago than by who is finding diamonds now?

What is killing Africa now is not that we did terrible things there a hundred years or more ago - IMO that's just a stick to keep bashing us with to keep giving more money to corrupt governments - but the levels of corruption going on there right now:
The list is courtesy of Transparency International's corruption perception index (CPI) which ranks countries on a scale of zero to 100; with zero being the most corrupt and 100 being the least corrupt.
According to the latest CPI report, the average index score in Africa is 33; the lowest in the world.
africa.businessinsider.com/local/lifestyle/20-most-corrupt-countries-in-africa-according-to-latest-corruption-index-report/pckezt4

As an anecdotal case study, when I lived in India (for work, no family connection) in the 90s, the only people interested in the Raj were nostalgic retired army majors or the weird RSS kids who waxed lyrical about the Nazis and pan-Aryanism. This was just when the BJP were in the ascendant, and their main focus was ethnic-religious nationalism, ie thinly disguised anti-Muslim communalist populism.
I was there not long after the pogroms across the three countries that formerly constituted India following the demolition of the Babri Masjid. There was communal violence, insurrection and pogroms across India at the time that I’d never heard about in the U.K.; inter caste, inter tribe, inter religion. Frankly nobody gave a shit about colonialism if it even anything about it in the first place. Don’t forget, only about half of India was ever directly administered by the British. The rest was administered by literally hundreds of small native states, who I’m sure did not slack when it came to corruption, oppression and general shit-headery.
I’d put money on the idea that a direct correlation could be drawn between colonial grievance rhetoric in India (if it even exists to any meaningful extent) and the rise of identity politics aka campus “liberalism” in the US. And I’d guess that is true across much of the global south, wherever such opinions can be freely aired.

Meanwhile, in the U.K., a Rhodes scholar leads protests against a statue of his benefactor.
Personally, I agree with the repatriation of culturally significant items, such as the Benin bronzes. Why not, as a sign of goodwill and an advanced understanding of our common humanity? But so much of it is incoherent whittering from people who insist others “educate themselves” while lacking the basic knowledge required to formulate a meaningful opinion.

I think the obsession with returning "stolen" objects just seems like a self congratulatory, privileged thing to spend time on. I actually do think the Benin bronzes should be returned, as they are the artwork and culture of the people they were taken from (although I wonder how many of the people posting about the evils of colonialism actually know the circumstances of how they were acquired). But the Ko-i-noor diamond? Why spend so much time agonising over whether one group of rich people rather than a group of rich people in another country own a sparkly rock? Don't people think there are more important things going on in the world? These kind of things seem conveniently easy for people to get worked up over as they don't cause them any inconvenience at all. Post on social media about the evils of slavery and colonialism on your phone manufactured with minerals mined by child workers (often effectively slaves). Feel good, vapid and shallow. Zero pain, maximum. social media points.

It wasn’t “ looted” it was mined out of the earth, it belonged to the mining company who owned the land, it was for sale to the highest bidder, didn’t sell so was given to someone, it’s that simple.
Stop calling people racist if they don’t agree with you, you don’t know anything about us.

Don’t you dare compare the UK to Zimbabwe! You don’t have a bloody clue.

I’m guessing you weren’t in the Punjab. That’s where the Koh-I-Noor was taken from, along with their royalty and wealth.

Punjab arguably suffered the most losses in the long term. From the massacre at Jalliwana Bagh to partition and more. But Punjab also supplied significant numbers of support to Britain for wars and other resources.

Udham Singh was from that region too. I don’t agree with what he did. But it seems like he was responding as an atheist who disagreed with the idea that god would sort things out, so he took matters into his own hands. When he did his awful crime, it raised questions amongst journalists about why and that’s when the links were made with the even worse actions committed during the massacre at Jalliwana Bagh.

Also, what happened to the ten year old child who signed away the Koh-I-Noor and his homeland is keenly felt in the Punjab because it is a tragedy. How can they do that to a child and then showcase the diamond on the crown as a prize?

Disgraceful. But the people also seem resigned that there’s nothing they can do, even though they know it was wrong. What’s done is done. Does that mean people should forget?

So if the jewel in question doesn't make us richer, why would returning it make South Africans richer?

Could it be that our riches aren't actually from 'looting' anything?