Crown Jewels looted from Africa

[Birdy1066]

The massive diamond in the sceptre of the monarch is the Great Star of Africa, 530.2 carats . It was discovered in 1905 and ‘gifted’ to the British royal family by the then colonial powers.
Activists in South Africa are now demanding that it is returned. I absolutely agree with them. Amid all the pomp and ceremony of the recent funeral everyone turns a blind eye to the fact that many of the gems in the Crown Jewels were looted from Africa in one form or another under colonialism.
Africa is NOT poor. But it’s peoples are poor because it’s mineral wealth and massive riches have been torn out of it and shipped elsewhere by western countries.
The majority of the British press couldn’t give a toss about the colonialist legacy of Great Britain but it is crucially important that the issue is examined and reparations made.
Those glittering diamonds, emeralds and rubies so much admired and set in the crowns and gaudy trinkets of the rich were taken out the dirt of Africa and dipped in the blood of its people.
At the very least it’s time they were returned.
Do you agree ?

I kind of get it, but consider, while you’re stewing in your outrage about some stupid diamond from a century ago, @Birdy1066 , African governments are dishing out mining contracts to foreign interests that give even less of a shit about the people than the colonial administrations did. If there’s civil unrest, whoosh, they just leave. They can always come back another day. And meanwhile, where the money going?

OP I suggest you do some research that goes beyond Facebook posts, because while your dreaming up fantasies of reparations or whatever, british made bombs are still being dropped from british made (and maintained) planes on Yemeni women and children and you could be out there protesting, writing to your MP, something, but you won’t, because it’s. just…a…bit…too…boring.
And that’s just one example. Making bold declarations about unactionable redressed of the evils of colonialism are much more zeitgeisty.
Or maybe Yemenis are not quite brown enough for you to give a shit about?

*unactionable redress (amongst other typos/autocorrects)

Where would the line be drawn? In museums, stately homes and houses all over the country there are artefacts from abroad which have been collected over the years.
Presumably at places like Chatsworth which has an organised archive there are receipts for stuff that was bought centuries ago, but many of the items have no proven provenance so how would anyone know the circumstances of their original purchase?
Also numerous valuable works of art have changed hands lots of times so who would be responsible for handing them back? The most recent buyer who bought them in good faith?

📣 🗣 🚨 👏🏽 🥇

I agree. Thievery is just that. The key thing is to return items, not arrogantly base it on your thoughts about African leaders in their own countries. The stolen items don't belong here.

The Gatekeepers who've decided British thievery and corruption in general is somehow better, prettier, nicer than African corruption won't agree with you tho

Depends who's asking, and how the things were obtained. Sometimes they were bought, sometimes they were stolen, sometimes they were "collected", which is often just a fancy way of saying stolen.

Works of art stolen from the Jews by Nazis have been handed back in some cases, even when subsequently sold on. Should that not happen either, because admin?

(not just Africa), meant to add

Nope. It doesn't need to be returned. They can keep asking but maybe it'd be better if they spent energy focusing on their corrupt country.

No. Nothing should be returned. There's war, bloodshed and oppression all over most historical artefacts of any value. Read the history of the Koh-i-Noor diamond. That's been all over the place Iran, Afghanistan, India. I'm tired of being held up as the worst of the worst. Why doesn't anyone ever go after Portugal or Brazil or the Arab nations for example and hector them about making up for their historical wrongs? Time we all stopped wringing our hands over unchangeable history and just got on with it!

I'm surprised how attached people are to these items. Have i misunderstood what they do for the country.

I'm a contributor to the threads on Royal Style in the Style and Beauty section of Mumsnet.

The jewels worn by Royals are much admired on the thread, by me also, but I do have misgivings re the provenance and ownership etc of many of the jewels worn by members of the European Royals including UK.
They were obtained on the backs of the suffering of many of the subjects of those royals.
For instance the Girls of Great Britain and Ireland tiara, a magnificent concoction of diamonds and pearls was given to Princess May of Teck ( later Queen Mary ) when she got engaged to Prince Albert who was heir to the British throne. He died and she married his brother.
Some aristocrat organised a fund raising committee to buy the tiara for May.
At that time Dublin, Ireland was part of the British Empire and it had the worst tenements in Europe, with people living in appalling conditions. It does grate a bit to think buying a very rich family---- another load of diamonds when many of their subjects were hungry and sick.
(To be fair to May there was money left over and she donated it the widows and orphans of a maritime disaster).
Leopold the 2nd of Belgium acquired great riches but the people of the Congo suffered immeasurably because of him and his greed.

Works of art stolen from the Jews by Nazis have been handed back in some cases, even when subsequently sold on. Should that not happen either, because admin?
TheLeadbetter
Of course they should be handed back to their Jewish owners or their descendants (though good luck getting back any of the art which was looted by Russians).

What is your solution for works of art with provenance lost or missing? Also, should art from everywhere be returned to its original country? Should all Italian paintings and sculptures go back to Italy?

Some responses here take my breath away. I'm shocked at the way in which some posters are prepared to dismiss this issue.
OP, I agree with you. How one can not see how our colonialist past still impacts the peoples in countries all over the world and communities here in the UK today, and how, by the same token, many of us continue to benefit, and then not feel inclined to consider how we can strive to take steps toward repairing the damage is embarassing.

Adante, not all art has been come by through spurious means, hence no need for repatriation of paintings or sculptures bought and sold across international borders where no coercion, theft or appropriation of property has been the case.

Who was this diamond taken from in Africa? The people who worked doing the mining?

Nope, because of the corrupt governments of Africa.
The west throws billions at the sub continent only for the government's to line their own pockets with it while watching their people starve.
They always will.

What the fuck??!

The brits get to have it sitting in an ornament that rarely sees the light of day, yet the elected governors of SA have to put it to good use? Why can't they put it in their own ornament that rarely sees the light of day, seeing as it was looted from their country in the first place? They can do whatever the hell they like with it. They owe nothing to you or any other Brit.

All the 'against' arguments on this thread are defenseless, logically and morally. Bottom line, they amount to "we are better than you, fuck off back to your little hovels you inferior dark people".

Africa is not a country. The sweeping generalizations about corruption, governance and wealth here are incredible.

There are 54 formally recognised countries and 2 countries not recognised by the UN in the continent of Africa. 15 or so of these mine diamonds.

OP I absolutely agree. If you can't see how colonialism still impacts the world then you're either ridiculous or willfully ignoring it.

Interesting thread which I will move down in order.

@Birdy1066 My comments below

If you want to be taken seriously you need to provide a citation to your claims. That is the minimum you must do, especially when you stray into geopolitical realms. Or you sound like Putin or Trump. You will never be taken seriously. Its just "touchy, feely" stuff.

Or bad journalism and content creation.

How are reparations to be made? Do we reverse everything back to how it was? Give back the Great Star? Call it quits - great and a done deal. Then what? The UK, Belgium, France, Russia, China, etc starts charging States for providing infrastructure, politics and medical care? Great - we could charge Africa for our colonialism ! Cher-chink! (Hint: this is to be avoided).

I will come back to Brazil later. It is fucked up. The Bill to the Bolsanaro's in Brazil is going to be huge.

Or maybe we drop the charges to Africa? Yes, let's do that. Let us all join in this chain of giving back. After all we can reap it tenfold. Let us give Africa something back. Let us give back what we took and - "Here you go Africa, here is an IOU for £850 billion". Is that enough or do you want more? We can double it, or triple it. Just tell us. Then you say "Well, why not times it by 10?". Then we say "OK that is fine. Here you go here is an IOU from Norway. We are countersuing the Norwegian government because those Vikings plundered our lands a thirteen hundred years ago". Meanwhile some single mother in Oslo reading this thread is shitting herself.

Here is another IOU for £2 TRILLION. It is what we expect to get from Italy for the Roman Empire invading this island.

Now these words in your opening post are interesting:

Those glittering diamonds, emeralds and rubies so much admired and set in the crowns and gaudy trinkets of the rich were taken out the dirt of Africa and dipped in the blood of its people.

Anyone who writes like that has no agenda other than their own imagery. You do not really care about Africa or its people. You only care in promoting yourself.

The definition of stolen isn’t even clear. I haven’t been able to find anyone who can really explain the exact original transaction of this particular gem. With other pieces, it is clear that what was once considered a legal transaction is being retroactively relabeled as invalid.

If we allow for retroactive reclassification, then even what we consider right and moral today is likely to be viewed negatively in the future.

Yes. And @Birdy1066 needs to provide some evidence they are not in 'the system' or maybe they are? Maybe @Birdy1066 is a stooge for some African regime?

Oh the irony!
did you genuinely type that in earnest ?

As I said 4 minutes before.

When all the loot taken by the Romans, Vikings and French is returned to us I would agree. Throughout history countries have invaded and taken valuables from their victims. Why doesn't everyone accept this and make sure it does not happen again? We cannot right past wrongs but we can make sure that we don't follow the example.