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I envy people who have Faith

772 replies

BlueBloodedBlue · 27/08/2022 20:38

I don't but it must be a real comfort to believe in a higher power and have something that gives a meaning to everything.

That's it really.

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pointythings · 31/08/2022 09:53

@FourChimneys and @CherryGenoa you've nailed it. I really like the idea that when my life ends and I am cremated, the molecules that once made up my physical substance will go back into the mix that is the universe and become part of something else. You could, at a stretch, call that an afterlife.

I'm perfectly happy for my awareness to end completely.

Vincitveritas · 31/08/2022 09:59

Yes, but what if it doesn't pointythings? That's a lot of faith you're putting in something that can't be proved either way.

pointythings · 31/08/2022 10:08

@Vincitveritas absolutely, but that is my belief and I take comfort from it, just as theists take comfort from their belief in an afterlife. Neither of us can know what will actually happen.

Vincitveritas · 31/08/2022 10:17

That's fair enough. This from Foil, Arms and Hog always makes me smile:

Sidonien · 31/08/2022 10:38

Hawkins001 · 29/08/2022 18:44

What happens when humans make first contact with other civilisations and how would religions square that perspectives with their religions ?

I believe the Catholic Church at least has addressed this and has said that they will all be God's creatures and it's not a problem.

Vincitveritas · 31/08/2022 10:47

Hawkins001 · 30/08/2022 19:11

We do, fancy, a cuppa tea ?

as for space and galaxies, considering how vast they are, it seems unusual, that if our scientific community is correct about the number of planets that could have lifeforms on them, etc, then the galaxies could be teaming with civilisations.

Absolutely, pop the kettle on! I agree there must be alien civilizations somewhere in the universe given there are billions of stars in our galaxy alone. I don't think that conflicts with my Christian beliefs.

Sidonien · 31/08/2022 11:25

In answer to the question about how we personally reconcile the problem of suffering with a belief in God - this is the way I think about it.

There are times when we humans deliberately subject ourselves and other creatures to suffering. For example, we give animals painful operations and hold our babies down to be vaccinated even though they cry. We do that because the outcome is good and necessary for the being that is suffering. Their suffering is real, but in comparison to what they gain from it, and relative to the length of their life, it is worth it for them, even though though they do not understand it.

I consider that in the context of an eternal life, the human life on earth is very short, and although suffering is real, the true self, the soul, can never be harmed or destroyed, and a loving God could allow us to suffer because it brings some benefit to us in our eternal life.

We humans actively choose to suffer when we see it is for some greater purpose. For example, (some of us! ) will get up off a warm sofa and go out and run in the rain until our lungs and feet hurt, because this is necessary to achieve the goal of running a marathon. I consider that my eternal soul /God may have some purposes and goals that are unclear to me in this brief human lifetime and that I may have chosen or consented to the challenges I face.

Also we choose to read sad books or watch scary movies which make us feel real emotions of sadness and fear, which are seemingly negative emotions, but we do this willingly. We know that the real self cannot be harmed by the story. I consider that the eternal soul/God may allow us to be immersed in our human experiences, knowing that we emerge unscathed at the end of it, having learnt something or experienced/ created something that was in some way beautiful or profound .

Personally, I also find that when I pray for help in my suffering , those prayers are answered. This doesn't mean that bad situations are removed, they are part of the human experience. But God may help me with some kind of relief or reduction in the intensity of the suffering, or may add his light to the situation, to change my perspective, may help me to forgive or understand myself or someone else, or in some way bring more peace and love to me that makes things easier to bear.

Vincitveritas · 31/08/2022 14:54

I like this story by Shoshannah Brombacher (from Chabad.org). It illustrates the point about faith and how we can't always see the bigger picture but have to trust in God:

I envy people who have Faith
I envy people who have Faith
I envy people who have Faith
Vincitveritas · 31/08/2022 14:55

Cont...

I envy people who have Faith
I envy people who have Faith
I envy people who have Faith
Vincitveritas · 31/08/2022 14:56

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I envy people who have Faith
I envy people who have Faith
Hawkins001 · 31/08/2022 22:42

Vincitveritas · 31/08/2022 10:47

Absolutely, pop the kettle on! I agree there must be alien civilizations somewhere in the universe given there are billions of stars in our galaxy alone. I don't think that conflicts with my Christian beliefs.

Most excellent, milk and how many sugars.?

I'm in favour of other beings, I just hope humanity or the religious leaders, of various faiths, don't try to start a religious war in space, especially if humanity is mismatched technology wise.

Hawkins001 · 31/08/2022 22:47

Personally, I believe in the strengths of the human spirit and the human mind, to persevere and achieve our goals. Without the need of any reliance on mythical beings, but I know different perspectives for different people.

Hawkins001 · 31/08/2022 22:52

Sidonien · 31/08/2022 10:38

I believe the Catholic Church at least has addressed this and has said that they will all be God's creatures and it's not a problem.

Fair point,. I'm sure if humans Make pickles in space with our religious philosophical beliefs, then Et, will soon correct our diplomatic transgressions.

Haggisfish3 · 31/08/2022 22:57

I’ve really enjoyed reading the posts on this thread and having a debate and hearing different ideas and opinions. Thank you everyone who has contributed .

DaisyJoy1 · 01/09/2022 08:14

As a Christian I feel desperately sorry for people who don't have a relationship with God. On so many levels. One of my Christian friends doesn't believe in hell as a literal place. She said that she believes that hell is actually the absence of God - people who are Christians will spend eternity with God, as He promised, and those who aren't, won't. And to be in an eternal state of separate from, or lacking God, is itself hell.

And I thought that this is true in life as well. Humans aren't meant to be separate from God. There is a God shaped hole inside all of us, and we desperately try to fill it with so many things. Friends, food, drugs, possessions, alcohol, career achievements, etc etc etc. But until we have a real relationship with God, we can't know real peace or real happiness. It's hellish to try to go through life without God. Looking back now, I don't know how I found purpose in life without God, or how I managed to get through the hard bits.

It's not just about having faith that everything will be okay and knowing that this world isn't our real home, although this is a huge comfort.

For me, it's about the knowing and understanding that we are so loved, beyond anything that we could ever imagine. It's about the fact that a God so powerful that He created galaxies, oceans, mountains, vast rainforests, etc, loved us so much that He voluntarily suffered a miserable life, being rejected and hated by the people He loved. He voluntarily suffered a death that was excruciating, humiliating, and degrading, all from His love for us.

And despite His great power, He still loves us enough on an individual and personal level that cares so deeply about the small details of our lives, He wants a personal relationship with us, He wants to hear us tell him our fears and our worries and our successes and our thanks. He stays with us always, listens to our prayers, and answers them.

I have always suffered with massive anxiety and one day I just couldn't cope with it anymore. I remember crying and asking God to show me that He was with me, and that He loved me, because it was a really dark day where I just felt so alone and couldn't feel His presence at all. At the time, I was living in a country where Christianity is not accepted, and while there are Christians, they are persecuted, and it's all very underground. I had been there for years and had never seen anyone publicly acknowledge or speak about God. But after that prayer, I went downstairs to the shop and a woman who had been quietly shopping when I approached took one look at me and, as if she recognised me, came towards me and was telling me with urgency and happiness that Jesus loves me, and that God is with us. When I left, she went back to her shopping. She wasn't just preaching to everyone, it seems that message was only for me.

When I got home I cried with happiness because that was the first time I had the realisation that the same God who created literally EVERYTHING loved me so much that He gave me what I most needed, when I most needed it.

Similarly, when a man from our church was rushed to hospital with a life-threatening condition, and things were looking really bleak, his wife asked us to pray for him as he went into surgery. We all did, and when he woke up the doctor was astounded that not only had he survived the surgery, but he seemed entirely healthy. Even the symptoms and side effects of the illness, that he should have had to live with for the rest of his life if, by some miracle he managed to survive, had completely gone. He was completely cured. I find that amazing too. That a God who is literally everywhere and in all things still hears and answers and heals individuals.

I feel sorry for people who are closed off to God because until you can open yourself up to God and accept His desire to have a relationship with you, you will miss beautiful and powerful things like this. You will miss this overwhelming sense of love which is far beyond any human love and which even as Christians we can't fully comprehend. It's so hard to explain to atheists because I know that this probably sounds mental. I would have thought it was a bit mental before I found a personal relationship with God and experienced it for myself.

But at some point, when you know God personally, atheists sound a bit crazy too 😁For me, hearing someone say they don't believe God exists sounds as insane as hearing someone say that, say, the Queen doesn't exist, or something. Like, how can anyone actually believe that there is no God? How can someone think that this perfectly functioning world came from absolutely nowhere? How can anyone believe in creation without a creator? But the things that make me know God with the most certainty are the things that have happened in my PERSONAL relationship with Him, things that can't be objectively proven (or even clearly explained!) to anyone but to me mean the whole world. And I think that's how it is for all Christians.

I really, really wish everyone could experience a relationship with God like they deserve to.

pointythings · 01/09/2022 08:20

@DaisyJoy1 I am glad the presence of god makes you so happy, but that does not mean you can presume that those of us who do not believe are miserable. That's exactly the arrogance of the believer that I have spoken about before in this thread. Humility is a virtue, presumption really isn't.

Bloodoranged · 01/09/2022 08:32

@DaisyJoy1

How incredibly insulting.

DaisyJoy1 · 01/09/2022 08:38

pointythings · 01/09/2022 08:20

@DaisyJoy1 I am glad the presence of god makes you so happy, but that does not mean you can presume that those of us who do not believe are miserable. That's exactly the arrogance of the believer that I have spoken about before in this thread. Humility is a virtue, presumption really isn't.

Of COURSE it doesn't mean everyone is miserable. Did you misread my post? At no moment did I say that everyone is miserable. On the contrary. People often find things to fill the 'God shaped hole' in their hearts. But these things don't bring long term satisfaction. Until you have a relationship with God, you will always be lacking something. That something is the relationship with God, which is arguably the most important relationship a human can have.

I did say that trying to make it through life's ups and downs without God is hellish - perhaps you misunderstood this and took this to mean everyone is miserable. No, I don't think that everyone is miserable, but I do think that it is hellish to have to navigate life's ups and downs without God. Sure, the good times feel good but the bad or confusing or scary times are unbearable.

I'm also not sure what humility has to do with humans needing God. Nothing I have said is a praise of myself or of any Christian as a person. Is it, rather, a praise of God and His goodness and that is not something we can downplay simply because others might find it uncomfortable or unpleasant or insulting. As Paul said, “Let the one who boasts boast in the Lord.” It's impossible to know God and to know God and to not speak of Him in this way, nor will I downplay the importance and necessity of having a relationship with God simply to please others who don't agree. Sorry!😊

pointythings · 01/09/2022 08:50

@DaisyJoy1 now you're doubling down on Christian arrogance. At least you're consistent. Lots of atheists have been through lots of hellish things without needing a god. I'm one of them. I am lacking nothing. It is presumptuous of you to say that I must be, and this is typical of a certain kind of believer.

You're like the believer who approached my youngest child and said that if only they believed, they might not need their wheelchair. I would suggest you take a little time to learn to accept that there are many ways to live a happy and fulfilled life, and that the 'God-shaped hole' doesn't apply to everyone.

Onebreathmore · 01/09/2022 09:08

@DaisyJoy1

I have a lot of respect for Christians and used to go to Church.

Its very obvious you are a convert, probably to evangelical Christianity. Your post does come across as arrogant, insulting, ‘othering’ Of non-Christians and desperately naive.

You do realise that many Christians pray and God does not come to their rescue? If in doubt, there is an entire history of Christian martyrdom. I do think the evangelical emphasis on God answering prayers is quite misplaced.

DaisyJoy1 · 01/09/2022 09:12

pointythings · 01/09/2022 08:50

@DaisyJoy1 now you're doubling down on Christian arrogance. At least you're consistent. Lots of atheists have been through lots of hellish things without needing a god. I'm one of them. I am lacking nothing. It is presumptuous of you to say that I must be, and this is typical of a certain kind of believer.

You're like the believer who approached my youngest child and said that if only they believed, they might not need their wheelchair. I would suggest you take a little time to learn to accept that there are many ways to live a happy and fulfilled life, and that the 'God-shaped hole' doesn't apply to everyone.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts! 😊

I always find it so sad that there is such a hostility towards God, and towards Christians who want other people to be able to experience God's love. The saddest thing is that this 'arrogance' comes from a place of love. To keep God's love a secret, to downplay it so as to not cause offence, or to pretend it's anything less than it is, would be dishonest, and disrespectful - both to our fellow humans and to God. It would not be loving to lie about something so life-changing and essential.

So I understand and have experienced a great deal this anger, irritation, frustration, that atheists feel when someone talks about God. It's normal, and expected. I don't feel any anger towards you for your response to what I've said and fully expected it when writing it 😊But as Christians, we are called to share with people about Jesus, and the love of God, even if it means that people become angry with you. We are also called to love one another, and it's impossible to love someone without being honest about who God is. If I were to be dishonest with you about this, it would be the opposite of loving. To cause mild offence is better than denying someone the truth about God.

And i'm sorry if you disagree about the 'God shaped hole', but this isn't something I am going to suddenly 'unlearn' because it has caused mild offence on a chatroom! It's also not something that I have pulled out of thin air. People have always had this, since the beginning of time. Literally every known society has had religious beliefs, a god, or gods, or searched for god, or made their own gods, because as humans we simply have a need for God. The craving for, and search for God is a very basic anthropological fact, even without faith.

I need to head back to work now (currently abroad and this is rather in the middle of my working day - got distracted chatting and have been slacking a bit!) so better get back to it! Enjoyed this conversation, always interesting to read other people's thoughts. Good bye, and thanks again! 😁🌻

pointythings · 01/09/2022 09:21

@DaisyJoy1 if you do not realise how offensive and arrogant you are then maybe you aren't a very good Christian. A little respect towards those who believe differently from you goes a long way. I have friends across the faith spectrum, and none of them speak the way you do. If you want to convince people of the joys of finding god, you are very much going about it the wrong way.

pointythings · 01/09/2022 09:22

Just to add - I feel no hostility towards god. That would be a bit futile, since I believe he does not exist. I do feel hostility towards people who are unwilling and unable to respect the faith positions of those who do not believe as they do and who persist in pushing those beliefs even when they have been told this is unwelcome.

wellhelloitsme · 01/09/2022 09:25

pointythings · 01/09/2022 09:21

@DaisyJoy1 if you do not realise how offensive and arrogant you are then maybe you aren't a very good Christian. A little respect towards those who believe differently from you goes a long way. I have friends across the faith spectrum, and none of them speak the way you do. If you want to convince people of the joys of finding god, you are very much going about it the wrong way.

I agree. As I said upthread, my mum is religious but kind, warm, humble and accepting of people.

That posters words are shockingly condescending and arrogant. I don't know how she can read them back and not at least see that and say 'ah sorry I realise now how that came across'.

Many of us atheists find peace and happiness in our lives that doesn't involve drinking, drugs, the other things she mentioned 🙄

Bloodoranged · 01/09/2022 09:27

@DaisyJoy1

I did say that trying to make it through life's ups and downs without God is hellish - perhaps you misunderstood this and took this to mean everyone is miserable. No, I don't think that everyone is miserable, but I do think that it is hellish to have to navigate life's ups and downs without God. Sure, the good times feel good but the bad or confusing or scary times are unbearable.

If you feel you couldn't be truly happy eithout God fair enough. But don't presume to speak for the rest of the population.