I envy people who have Faith

[BlueBloodedBlue]

I don't but it must be a real comfort to believe in a higher power and have something that gives a meaning to everything.

That's it really.

@wellhelloitsme exactly! I have friends from across the religious spectrum and they are never like the poster on here. We are able to find all the things we have in common - things that are all about being a decent human being - and focus on those rather than on the trappings that are different. There are so many different ways of being a good person, not just one.

I'm totally atheist but I'd love to be part of those churches in America with the fantastic gospel singers, that really looks like a genuinely uplifting and spiritual experience!

I have strong faith. It has helped and comforted me through many of the trials and tribulations of life.

these people are unable to accept that other people may think and believe differently from them - they simply view those people as wrong and in need of correction. There's no respect for difference there and really, there's no point talking to them because they don't want to listen

Mmm, wonder what that’s like.

@GoldenOmber it's exactly like militant atheists. Or vegans. Or vegetarians. Being militant doesn't help.

I’ll stick a ‘sarcasm’ tag in more explicitly next time 😉

or, okay, to be more explicit:

Somebody asked about the current floods in Pakistan, asking if anyone could 'elaborate further' on how Christians deal with the problem of evil. I don't know what that poster's motivations were so let's assume it was an honest question asking what how Christians deal with the problem of evil, rather than some kind of sneery gotcha attempt or anything.

Subsequent discussion was mostly atheists explaining to each other, and to one Christian who called the objection to God on problem-of-evil grounds 'emotional', why atheists think this is a good argument against Christian belief. Again and again. Several of you were quite clear in fact that you were 'patiently explaining' what you think about what you imagine they think, and what you imagine believers think, and what sort of logical conundrum this must create in their heads.

Which... okay? But we already know you don't buy into Christian belief, what with not being Christians. So this is not really telling anyone very much about what Christians believe, is it? And it's almost as if nobody in the discussion was actually interested in what Christians believe for its own sake, except to argue against it as inadequate to convince them, as non-Christians.

I think the Mormons are wrong about a great deal of things, but if someone said "why do Mormons believe that the ancient Jews sailed to America, anyway?", I'd assume they wanted actual Mormons - or at least people who knew about Mormon theology - to explain it. If, instead, the ensuing discussion was a bunch of non-Mormons saying "yeah I know it's mad, isn't it?" "you're so right! how can ANYONE believe that!", then I'd think that was more just pointless back-patting than any genuine interest in what Mormons believe or how or why they explain it to themselves.

(I think that's what the LDS believe? I do not actually know that much about them. Mormons, feel free to correct me.)

GoldenOmber that person was me and yes, it was a genuine question.

I have found your latest posts very interesting, thank you.

@GoldenOmber I've always felt that 'I don't know' is the best answer to the question of god not intervening when bad things happen. It's honest, and it kind of mirrors how atheists feel. We don't know either.

I don’t know what I’d do without my faith tbh.
I find great comfort and reassurance in it. It’s the greatest gift my parents gave me, I think- above all they’ve done as the fantastic parents they are.

Of course I won’t force my children but I really pray they hold onto their faith throughout their lives.

OP, I don’t know what made you set up this thread but I hope it gets better

OK, cool. In that case, I can answer it as a 'how do Christians internally justify this to themselves within their own worldview?' sense (at least for myself) - but like I said, it won't be a very satisfactory answer from a 'convince me your view about the universe is the correct one' sense.

so first off: none of the conventional 'here's the answer!' explanations for the problem of evil sound convincing to me. For evil caused by humans deliberately acting evilly I suppose you can argue human free will, but there's still what we'd call 'natural evil' - the floods in Pakistan right now, and the wildfires and plagues and horrendous painful diseases and so on and so on. I know some people believe that they are all there to teach us a lesson, or serve some greater purpose, but this does not seem very convincing to me. Some people say it's more because God can't micromanage every situation by swooping down and intervening to e.g. make that match not start that fire, because then the universe wouldn't be a predictable place we could learn in and study through the laws of nature, but again I do not find this massively convincing as it seems to be limiting God's ability to set up the universe in a way where it contains less misery in the first place.

So I don't have an explanation for why a loving God would allow this, or would create the universe in this way, and therefore I don't know. Presumably there is an answer my limited human mind can't understand, in the same way that seahorses can't understand algebra? I can't imagine what it would be, though. The world certainly has a lot of pain and misery in it.

But where I would differ from an atheist is that I already do believe in a loving God, for a bunch of other reasons. I'm not deciding what I believe in based on the existence of painful diseases or natural disasters, I'm looking at the painful diseases and natural disasters from the perspective of already having that belief, and therefore another slightly different question is: so how does that fit? how can this loving God be reconciled with all this evil? If I do not have a neat pat explanation that says "ah well, it's all part of the same thing" or whatever, then how, lacking that explanation, can I fit these two things together? Okay fine if my limited mortal mind cannot understand the greater whatever here, but my limited mortal mind still has to live with it, and I can't pretend the evil's not evil but at the same time I can't argue myeslf out of the existence of God, so... ???

And Christian theology on that point - on the point of how a loving God co-exists with a natural world full of evil, rather than the why - does give a framework for thinking about it. Because it's a how rather than a why it comes in the form of stories and analogies and narratives - which again, if you're coming from a Christian worldview in the first place, is the way that you fit "things that the limited mortal mind can't understand" within the space of a limited mortal mind. So this is why we think Jesus talked in parables - they're not like Aesop's fables - they're using narrative to say "I can't explain to you exactly what this thing is, but this is what it is like."

And the Christian narrative for what a loving God existing in a world of suffering is like, is that it's a God who does not conquer the suffering but experiences it - who does not come in as a warrior at the head of an army, but as a newborn baby born to poor teenager in a backwater of the Roman empire - who got nailed to a cross and didn't break free like the Incredible Hulk, but died. And then came back to life. So the way God defeats suffering is not to wade in and fix it and remove it and conquer it but rather suffer it, in all its horror, and then be on the other side of it. That isn't an answer to 'why would God allow this universe to run in this way?', but is some kind of answer to 'what sort of narrative tell us what it is like for God to coexist with suffering?'

It would be totally reasonable of you to say "yes but I'm not interested in that question, and I don't really care about narratives and parables and just-so stories, I want an answer to the problem of evil which would convince an atheist (or an agnostic or a spiritual-but-not-religious deist)". But I'm not trying to convert anybody and I can't really answer that 'prove me wrong, then' type of question even if I was. I can only answer the question about how I, as a Christian, live with the sense of a loving God and a universe full of evil.

(or I'm just turning my brain off so I can believe fluffy comforting stuff - people can believe that if they want I suppose!)

@GoldenOmber you see, that makes sense. We all need something to give us some comfort when tough things happen and that thing is belief - it's just that atheists and believers take comfort from opposing belief positions. The need for solace is human and valid.

GoldenOmber Thank you for your long and thought provoking post. I'm a hard core atheist, but really appreciate reading your point of view.

Same here, I found it really interesting and respectful of other views so thank you @GoldenOmber, genuinely!

@Lulooo thanks for your thoughts as a Muslim, I really enjoyed reading them! ❤️

Interesting that people who indulge in classic passive aggressive behaviour always accuse other people of it

Agree with pointy things and goldenomber. I guess I find it hard to believe in quantum entanglement because it is so weird to me - but I can accept that maybe it is true - maybe there is a way of squaring the circle (and being consistent with all the evidence) - that I’m not clever enough to understand. It’s like a caveman who might not believe it is possible for something as heavy as a rock to float on water or fly. Or goldenomber’s seahorse and algebra.

I hope it is true in the same way the man said to Jesus - I believe, Lord help my unbelief! Hoping that there is something better and Knowing that I may not understand everything helps me deal with the sadness in the world. But I also need God’s help for it because I do understand the reasons why someone might not believe.

Clearly the truth hurts!

I tend to agree with this.

Good analogy
It’s interesting that this thread has turned into a (for the most part civilised and reasonable thread on atheism) when it was started about someone without faith saying they envied someone with it.
Imagine if it’d been ‘I envy pet owners or healthy people or bilingual people’
Lots of people suggesting ways to get a dog or get fit or learn a language but the main theme of the thread has turned into dogs are rubbish/ healthiness is a damaging concept/ monoliguilism is the rational best thing ever 🤷🏻‍♀️

And where is BlueBloodiedBlue? They seem to have thrown a hand grenade into the ether of Mumsnet and run off...

Well, coming back to that question in the OP, I think it is easy for people to jump straight from “faith must be reassuring” to “people have faith because it’s reassuring.” Like if we let our logical brains work properly we’d all be atheists, but some of us value logic less or just aren’t tough enough to face the gritty bleakness of reality.

Maybe this is actually the case for some people, I couldn’t say, but I don’t think it is a common experience of religious people. For those who have gone from lacking belief to having one the transition point wasn’t “life’s too cruel”, it was more “this particular not-religious worldview I have doesn’t work, either because it doesn’t give me a way to explain these experiences I have, or because there’s something else about the world I can’t satisfactorily explain this way.”

For me a big part of the last one was that I couldn’t hold my conviction that morality was objective alongside my lack of belief in anything outside the natural world. I am not saying atheists have to be stupid or immoral if they can - obviously there are some atheists who do believe in objective morality and do not feel a conflict between that and atheism - but for me there was always an element of “I know this is true but I don’t quite know how it is true.” (and I still have that kind of “dunno?” position re: religion too, about other things, but it’s not like I didn’t have it before.)

So having faith can be comforting, but in my experience this is an effect of having it rather than the cause of having it.

No, I don’t envy people of faith at all, they carry a burden. I tried Christianity as an adult and did an alpha course because I was raised by atheists and thought I should try it after a good friend persuaded me. Tried various styles of church after that. But I am a very rational person and I couldn’t make myself believe in any of it. I am comforted by the idea that we die and that’s it.

I also hated the ritual and having to give up precious time for uninteresting bible study, and sing songs that made me cringe. Struggled with accepting the homophobia. The community aspect was nice but I get that in other ways now.

CherryGenoa I agree with you about the comfort of nothing afterwards. I often say, referring to the future, "When I am compost..."

I do appreciate the way this thread has gone, a lot of respect all round.