I envy people who have Faith

[BlueBloodedBlue]

I don't but it must be a real comfort to believe in a higher power and have something that gives a meaning to everything.

That's it really.

@Malie my DD1 studied Ancient History and one of the things she learned was that historical sources should indeed be treated with caution - not discounted, but also not used to state anything as a certainty.

And oral tradition is indeed a powerful thing, but it is open to manipulation by the powers of the day just as anything else is. The time around Jesus' death was highly politically charged. Anything could have happened, anyone who was there at the time could say whatever they wanted. The fact that you want to believe one thing over another does not change that.

The biological mechanics of memory are a function of the human brain and evolution suggests that it is very unlikely that they have changed substantially in a short (in evolutionary terms) period like 2000 years.

I agree that man made climate change will have contributed to the floods in Pakistan. Man's presence on earth cannot however explain why a hypothetical deity created a world with geological fault lines that cause earthquakes that kill people. And I sincerely hope that you are not one of those people who believe that floods, disasters and disease are a punishment from god because gay people.

I have to say I actually respect that answer more than people who bluster or say that it's humans fault.

Because it is humans fault due to our misuse of the earth and it's resources. I don't disagree with that.

I simply don't see how an all powerful god can watch innocent people suffer so terrible in things like floods / tsunamis etc if he loves humans.

Why wouldn't a loving god step in to help?

Why allow abject misery for so many people around the world?

And why wouldn't he have at some point revealed himself to the world in order to 'save' everyone spiritually and create a happy, balanced, wonderful world? He is supposedly the maker of all things so could reveal himself in an undeniable, definitive way that people would have to believe. I don't know how people can believe he wouldn't do so if he could.

Why wouldn't he want everyone to know the 'love of god' if it exists?

Yes I admit that the question of suffering is one which is very challenging as we have found in our own situation. The one thing we do know as Christians is that God has come and lived among us and shared our sufferings. The cross is the ultimate sign that God knows all about human suffering.

I am surprised that your study of ancient history didn’t include the fact that the early Christians were not at all a political group. They were a persecuted little religious group. They had nothing to gain politically by propagating the message they did and in fact it cost most of them their lives. As the former Watergate conspirator Charles Colson said if there had been a conspiracy someone would’ve cracked under the pressure. As it is the gospel stories about the resurrection of Christ stand up to scrutiny. As many have said, these guys really believed they were telling the truth.
The function of the human brain has changed with the advent of reading and writing.
as I say you only have to visit a society where people do not read and write to realise the incredible memory these people have. Nothing to do with evolution.
I am always amazed that people who blame a God they don’t believe in the disasters but never give God thanks for all the good things in the world. I don’t believe I said that disasters were punishment.

Just because someone believes they are telling the truth, that doesn't mean that they are!

Also I didn't say that the early Christians were a political group. But they certainly caused political upheaval in others - the Romans saw them as a threat and that was enough to cause political instability.

(It wasn't me who studied Ancient History, it was my DD1, and her specialty was Agrippina Minor, which is a long way from the time when Jesus was alive.)

If God lovingly creates us all in the womb, how do you explain siamese twins who are joined at the brain or heart and can't be separated? Or fetuses shown to have brain damage, who if born will never be able to walk, talk, see or hear? How do you explain miscarriages? I'm sorry but how can God be loving with all these things going on? If he's got the power to create a whole world, why couldn't he be powerful enough to prevent deformities?

Why should this god be given thanks for all the good things in the world - why should he take all the credit? It’s like when a surgeon saves someone’s life, some people will say “thank god!”, and yet it was the surgeon who spent years and years learning how to become a top class doctor, spent many subsequent years perfecting his skills, he was the one who saved that person’s life and yet this god gets all the credit?

BUT when something does go wrong, when innocent people suffer needlessly, then humans are to blame, and it’s not god’s fault? How can this be right?

@Malie

I am always amazed that people who blame a God they don’t believe in the disasters but never give God thanks for all the good things in the world. I don’t believe I said that disasters were punishment.

People who don't believe in God don't blame God for anything, because they don't believe in him.

When atheists like me say 'why does God allow floods / kids with terminal illnesses etc', we aren't blaming him, we are asking why someone would believe that a God would allow such terrible things to happen to innocent people.

They aren't blaming 'God', they are using those things as examples of what they (we) see as something that requires cognitive dissonance - the concept of a loving god vs the concept that if he exists, he doesn't step in to help innocent people e.g. sick children in pain.

Depends what you’re asking I suppose. Is it “how do you reconcile this within your own theistic worldview?” or “how do you reconcile this in a way that also convinces me you’re objectively correct about how you view the universe?”

Because I can answer the first, but it’d be pretty unsatisfactory to you as an answer to the second.

100% this. Exactly!

So your rejection of God is actually emotional not intellectual?

@Malie

So your rejection of God is actually emotional not intellectual?

Did you read my post properly?

Here is the part that answers your question:

They aren't blaming 'God', they are using those things as examples of what they (we) see as something that requires cognitive dissonance - the concept of a loving god vs the concept that if he exists, he doesn't step in to help innocent people e.g. sick children in pain.

This isn't me explaining my emotions, it's me explaining the cognitive dissonance required by people of faith when it comes to their logic around emotive subjects. The cognitive dissonance required in order to believe in the concept of a God is part of my intellectual rejection of the concept of a God. Intellectual, it doesn't make logical sense to believe in an loving, powerful God who allows innocent people to suffer greatly.

It feels like you're continually looking for 'gotcha' opportunities or ways to dismiss what people are saying rather than respectfully reading their actual words.

Otherwise I don't know why you presumed my rejection of the concept of a God is emotional and not intellectual. You must not have read the post properly.

Hopefully that's the case rather than you being disingenuous.

Now I've explained do you see what I mean and have any thoughts on it rather than a throwaway one line designed to dismiss what I shared?

It’s not cognitive dissonance. It’s emotive anger. I learned many years ago that atheism is not intellectual but based on emotion and perception. After all, if I am given a car and completely misuse it, then should I blame the manufacturer if I crash it? The problem is that mankind wants to run his own affairs independent of the creator then blames God when things go badly.

Thank you for your thought provoking replies everyone.

@Malie you still haven't read @wellhelloitsme 's post properly. The cognitive dissonance she mentions is in the minds of the believers, not the atheists.

Where did you 'learn' where atheism comes from, out of interest?

It’s not cognitive dissonance. It's emotive anger.

Again, you've read this wrongly: I'm saying that faith based on a loving God requires cognitive dissonance from people of faith. You've said 'it's not cognitive dissonance' about atheists. That makes no sense in relation to the discussion above but I appreciate perhaps you weren't aware of the phrase / concept of cognitive dissonance.

I learned many years ago that atheism is not intellectual but based on emotion and perception.

So you know better than me how I feel and why? Goodness me.

The problem is that mankind wants to run his own affairs independent of the creator then blames God when things go badly.

Again, are you not reading my posts? Here is an explanation of what you're not understanding re 'blame':

They aren't blaming 'God', they are using those things as examples of what they (we) see as something that requires cognitive dissonance - the concept of a loving god vs the concept that if he exists, he doesn't step in to help innocent people e.g. sick children in pain.

People aren't blaming god for bad things happening. They're saying that those bad things, such as children getting painful and terminal cancer when tiny, do not intellectually support the concept of a loving and powerful God.

That isn't based on their anger about those bad things happening, it's based on them being a thought exercise for people to try to have a meaningful discussion about the concept of a God.

You do not know my feelings, thoughts and motives better than I do. It's offensive and frankly not in keeping with the teachings of your own faith to tell me what my beliefs are founded on when I've patiently explained what they are founded on. That shows arrogance, superiority and presumption all of which are not virtuous in scripture.

You are either being wilfully disingenuous, not reading posts properly or not understanding the concepts being discussed patiently.

We do, fancy, a cuppa tea ?

as for space and galaxies, considering how vast they are, it seems unusual, that if our scientific community is correct about the number of planets that could have lifeforms on them, etc, then the galaxies could be teaming with civilisations.

I came to faith when I was 13. I had major mental health issues at the time. I'm 35 now and it's been a long journey since then. Lots of ups and downs, hurts from "church" etc, struggles and doubts, which I've had to push past (and still do!) I can 100% say God never left me in those struggles, though it felt sometimes like He did.
I feel I've largely come through the other side, though it will always be a lifelong process. I have an inner peace and hope that sees me through any difficulties.
To anyone thinking of seeking faith, it is so worth it! God is available to all of us. Prayer, the Bible, finding a loving church and supportive Christians are things that have helped me the most.

Sorry but when it comes to name-calling I’m out of an argument. God bless

@Malie

I didn't call you names, I described your behaviour which came across as arrogant, full of superiority and presumptuous.

Repeatedly calling people closed minded and then flouncing when they explain for the umpteenth time that you've misunderstood what they've said (and explained patiently, repeatedly) isn't a great look tbh. Something for you to work on - actually reading to / listening to what people say even if they don't share your beliefs. And being prepared to say 'ah ok I misunderstood what you meant' instead of doubling down when you misunderstood something.

FYI saying 'god bless' to someone who has repeatedly said they aren't a believer, on a thread where atheists have said multiple times they don't want to be prayed for etc, is so passive aggressive and quite offensive.

But you knew that already.

100%

The passive aggressive behaviour isn’t very Christian, is it?

@wellhelloitsme it's the arrogance and presumption of some hardcore believers that turns me off religion. Like the person who approached my youngest DS these people are unable to accept that other people may think and believe differently from them - they simply view those people as wrong and in need of correction. There's no respect for difference there and really, there's no point talking to them because they don't want to listen. They just want to take the words you use and twist them.

It's such a shame isn't it? And it doesn't have to be that way!

For example, my mum has faith and is a lovely, warm, kind person who listens respectfully to others and absolutely loves learning about people who have different life experiences to her whether that's due to their religion, nationality, race, sexuality etc etc. She welcomes difference and appreciates the importance of diversity in thinking. She's my favourite human.

I am an atheist, she is a Christian. We respect each other and can have meaningful discussions about religion as well as everything else, staying respectful of each other. She exhibits the opposite of the condescending and passive aggressive approach taken by a poster on here this evening.

If my mum was chatting to an atheist on a thread where multiple atheists said they don't want to be prayed for, I cannot imagine her flouncing with a 'god bless'.

Because that level of pettiness and passive aggression is so 'unchristian' based on the teachings Christians claim they should live by.

You don't need religion to have faith. Just read some modern spiritual teachers like Deepak Chopra or Eckhart Tollle and you'll understand the power within yourself and the universe.

Religion is man-made ideology to control the masses. True faith is something different