"You don't owe your parents anything"

[climbingqueenie]

I've seen a lot of this sort of thing bandied around on TikTok and other social media and I wondered if it was the norm to think this these days. I'm obviously not talking about abusive parents- my Dad was emotionally abusive and I don't really have anything to do with him as an adult - but just in general, is it really wrong to expect a reciprocal relationship with your adult children? I spend time with my DM and help her out because I love her and she does the same for me. I'd be pretty gutted if my DC grew up and didn't want to see me or didn't consider my feelings or spoke to me rudely. My mum was by no means perfect but what parent is? She had her own traumas and flaws as we all do but essentially her heart is in the right place and she loves us all, and always showed it. So no I don't "owe" her anything but I appreciate her and I like to help her out.

I don't know, I just feel there is a lot of tendency these days to put all the blame for any problems you might have on your parents and it isn't very healthy. Is there anyone who parents in a perfect way that has no damaging effect whatsoever on their children? Surely we are all a little bit dysfunctional and that's just part of being human? To reiterate, I'm not talking about abuse. I just feel there is significant pressure on parents these days to centre their children's emotional wellbeing- as is obviously completely right- but also to display no thoughts or feelings or emotions of your own. I have a friend for example with a teenage DS who speaks to her like dirt - one time after he'd spoken to her particularly badly she cried and he told her to do that was emotionally manipulative.

Is that where we are? Do you have to just allow your children to say what they like to you and have no emotional response?

I'm genuinely interested in this because I know it has many layers of nuance.

Really interesting discussion, this stuff fascinates me.

I think the whole TikTok/internet movement to label people/parents toxic is sort of a toddler/teenage rebellion and part of a bigger picture - an emotional development curve in society that we really need and that is part of the journey towards developing empathy. It’s like the story of the prodigal son, where there’s a period of complete independence, raging against parents for their shortcomings while we find ourselves and develop our own values and eventually we integrate our narcissism, develop empathy and come back to the family home in a metaphorical sense. I don’t think it’s anything to worry about. I think it’s a much needed period of independence and solitude for those still caught in enmeshed family dynamics (which are pretty common) to move towards interdependence.

We have to fully embrace and know our narcissism in order the integrate it and that’s exactly what these tiktokers are working through. They’ll be okay and it’ll be okay. I think it’s necessary and desirable for society as a whole for them to go through that journey.

As an adult, you don't really owe your parents anything. But then, you're parents don't owe you anything either.

I agree with this. If parents have given their children love and affection in childhood and tried their best (even if not perfect), then hopefully a reciprocal bond will have been established by adulthood so both parent and child love and respect each other and are there for each other.

But I think we have to be very careful with the idea that children 'owe' their parents or have obligations of care towards their parents. In many countries where this is very much accepted and family caregiving for the elderly is the norm, this often just leads to care for the elderly being pushed onto unpaid female relatives who often have childcare and work responsibilities as well. There is a huge gender gap in caregiving within families and notions of 'owing' parents can only exacerbate this.

I dunno, I often feel like I owe my young DC happiness at the total expense of my own

But you chose to become a parent and to have children, so yes, you do owe it to them to do your absolute best, as you're the reason they exist in the first place.

But the flip side is that they never asked to be born or to have you as parents. They don't owe you anything just because you decided to reproduce, as harsh as that sounds.

Personally I think it's very odd when parents expect their kids to behave a certain way and to owe them certain things.

That comment of mine was clearly made light heartedly, I obviously know all that!

"I dunno, I often feel like I owe my young DC happiness at the total expense of my own 😅"

I think this is really common and can lead to kids growing up and becoming selfish.

I recently became aware of this myself so now I do things that encourage dc to think of us too.
Little things like, if I ask how their day was, I might add "you can ask me how mine was now and I'll tell you about this exciting thing that happened"
Or 'Here's a little gift for your dad. Why don't you give it to him?'
And I'm always encouraging them to make me tea and then being delighted with it.

I had an incident in my early 20’s where my Mum made it very clear she wasn’t prioritising her children anymore. It wasn’t abusive or anything like that but she made a decision that was very traumatising for me and my sibling, and although she was sorry we were upset she still prioritised herself. After that I really felt quite freed from feeling any responsibility to her - we’re both adults now and we both put ourselves first. I don’t feel a duty to her in the same way as she showed me she didn’t feel that for me anymore. We’re close - we talk every day and I’ve just been on holiday with her! - but I feel no responsibility to her anymore. I think it works both ways.

That comment of mine was clearly made light heartedly, I obviously know all that!

But in your posts, you don't seem to understand that abuse isn't the only reason for adult children not to maintain a relationship with your parents.

Children are under zero obligation to get on with or even like their parents - they certainly don't owe them anything.

An accident of birth shouldn't mean your beholden to people for your entire life. What's the benefit of forcing a relationship between two adults just because you're related? I genuinely don't get it.

Actually I do understand that - I think that pretty much all the reasons given here do constitute abuse.

In my culture family is important. It isn't in other cultures. I understand that.

I think I owe by parents huge gratitude and respect, not for having me and raising me but for how they did it.

It wasn't until I was older than I realised what an absolutely wonderful childhood I had. While we didn't have a very wealth position our parents made your we had what we needed, they thought us so much, made sure we knew we were loved and supported and knew they would always support us no matter what problems we had or caused.

There was a rule in our house that if you ever needed help or found yourself in a situation you shouldn't be in or having done something you shouldn't to call them, they would make sure we got home safely etc. It saved things from being a lot worse so many times.

Unfortunately, I know so many of my friends who didn't have the same experience from abuse, indifference, no affection, no praise or warm etc., prioritising partners, careers etc. and it's had an impact on their adult lifes.

I know I was truly privileged that for some reason my parents did a phenomenal job and we were very lucky kids. I feel I owe them for that because there are so many shitty parents in comparison.

@climbingqueenie
You can't really know about the intricacies of someone else's relationships. Siblings can be treated markedly differently which affects resulting relationships.
It sounds like you're calling your SIL's brother "a horrible person" primarily based on testimonies of people who don't like him. This well-poisoning is extremely common.

Please don't think I'm sitting here expecting my DC to do X,Y,Z for me when I'm old. I'm not. But I hope to raise them as kind and caring people, and kind and caring people generally do want to help and support others. That's how I was raised.

Actually I do understand that - I think that pretty much all the reasons given here do constitute abuse.

A clash of personality or having nothing in common isn't abuse, though. I wouldn't maintain a friendship with somebody I didn't get on with, so what's the benefit of doing so with family?

Bingo! OK, I can totally accept the Your SILs brother is likely 'just a selfish arsehole' rather than having psychological issues. These people definitely exist but they can as easily be parents as they can be children.

Sometimes it's not abuse, sometimes it's not psycholocal issues or mental health problems, sometimes it literally comes down to the fact that the person (or people) involved are just selfish, or disinterested or whatever. And in those cases surely you can't blame the child (or parent) for cutting those ties.

The reason he doesn't speak to his parents was they didn't want to sell their house to loan him the £50k he needed to clear gambling debts. Before that he had threatened his mother with physical violence, abused his ex wife (whom I also know), refused maintenance for his children among multiple other pretty awful things. He's not a nice person.

"Owe them"? I think some people have a greater sense of duty than others. It's nicer if your dc spend time with you out of affectation of course, but - abusive or just toxic parents aside - of course we have a duty toward our parents.
I haven't seen the kind of tiktok thing you mention OP, but I have seen a chap on tiktok talking about how much your mum loves you and how you should respect her, so I guess it can go either way!

People don't appreciate their parents until they have their own children and see how xx.. hard it can be.
I spose people are having them a decade or so later so more time to criticise.

abusive or just toxic parents aside - of course we have a duty toward our parents.

Why?

But presumably having nothing in common wouldn't mean you would choose to never speak to someone again. I have nothing in common with my own brother but I still love him and we still speak.

Particularly if there are large age gaps siblings can have very different childhoods. Which often imv the luckier ones don't accept.

I definitely had more empathy for my mum once I has my own DC. I also understood how much she loved us then too.

Also parents, now we are all living longer with better health shouldn't rely on DCs for companionship or socialising. If you get on great that's good but it shouldn't be expected by DPs.

I am not really aware of the tik-tok phenomenon which does sound annoying. But I do think that responsibilities in families should flow parent to child. I hope to build a close, loving relationship with my children so that they want to do things for/ with me as adults.

However older generation, my parents and 50% on PIL come from an era where they think they should be prioritised (my mother never put me first and it rankles). I find them very entitled.

But presumably having nothing in common wouldn't mean you would choose to never speak to someone again. I have nothing in common with my own brother but I still love him and we still speak.

I mean, I wouldn't openly ignore them but no, I wouldn't go out of my way to speak to them either. I genuinely don't see the benefit.

I love my dad and would speak to him if he called me, but he never calls me as we have nothing to talk about - the same reason I don't call him. We're just very different people with nothing in common except genetics.

Forcing myself to have a relationship with him would likely just lead to upset as there's nothing in common and it just leads to awkward silence and discomfort. So I don't see the benefit in putting myself through that at, and he clearly feels the same.

That doesn't make either of us bad people. He was actually a great parent when I was younger and was more hands on than my mum (due to their jobs) but as adults we have nothing in common and that's okay.

Would you help him if he was in trouble or unwell, for instance? No judgement, genuinely curious.

I don’t think adult children owe their parents anything, but it works both ways, as parents don’t owe their adult children anything either. What I mean by “owe” is literally in its usage to mean an obligation or debt.

This isn’t to say that complete uncaring and lack of support between parents and adult children is fine or desirable. But whether you have that is really a function of how close your relationship is, and so is altruistic and not from “owing” them something.