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Ukraine Invasion: Part 29

1000 replies

MagicFox · 18/07/2022 08:11

Welcome all, part 29

OP posts:
Thread gallery
108
MagicFox · 11/08/2022 09:42

@MissConductUS @ScrollingLeaves Great thread on that war gaming: twitter.com/austinjdahmer/status/1557524019850760197?s=21&t=Pnsesm3u052KUV_B0vPLgA

OP posts:
AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 11/08/2022 11:32

ScrollingLeaves
Are there records showing war games prove to be accurate when compared with events that subsequently happen?

It is on record that the Japanese wargamed the second world war before joining in.

The accepted wisdom is that obviously the senior officers took the part of the Japanese -- to play uncultured Westerners would be to lose face. Unfortunately their juniors, who played the Americans, didn't dare to show them up by defeating them, and they got a quite unrealistic idea of Japan's capabilities as a result.

minsmum · 11/08/2022 11:43

mobile.twitter.com/UAWeapons/status/1557660617300910080 A little bit of light relief best watched with the sound on

DuncinToffee · 11/08/2022 13:42

Wish you were here

The optics of Russian tourists fleeing Crimea enmasse while a Russian airbase burns behind them are bad for Putin. Really bad.

Annexing Crimea was a popularity high point for Putin, playing as a truimph for him and for his armed forces.

Not so much, now

twitter.com/DmitryOpines/status/1557638447661187079?t=O39jBUz5jNioGNSJQ2V_Gw&s=19

ScrollingLeaves · 11/08/2022 14:14

@minsmum · Today 11:43
mobile.twitter.com/UAWeapons/status/1557660617300910080 A little bit of light relief best watched with the sound on

That is funny, and odd actually, especially as the tank seemed to be in such a hurry.
You do wonder if some of the comments were right: one comment that the driver just wanted to put the tank out of operation and get out of there, the other that the driver was drunk.

ScrollingLeaves · 11/08/2022 14:23

@AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · Today 11:32

“ScrollingLeaves
Are there records showing war games prove to be accurate when compared with events that subsequently happen?”

It is on record that the Japanese wargamed the second world war before joining in.

The accepted wisdom is that obviously the senior officers took the part of the Japanese -- to play uncultured Westerners would be to lose face. Unfortunately their juniors, who played the Americans, didn't dare to show them up by defeating them, and they got a quite unrealistic idea of Japan's capabilities as a result.

How fascinating, thanks for that answer.

I know on another level, too mundane to really consider I suppose, that those ‘drop down menus’ of possible enquiries on on-line web sites almost never have the question/answer I am looking for. Yet whoever devised them thought they’d thought of everything I presume.

i.e. My thoughts are that a war game is interesting but I’d rather just assume that the Chinese are very powerful.

I wonder if anyone ever thought a nuclear power plant could be invaded and partially controlled by an ignorant invading army?

notimagain · 11/08/2022 14:50

The problem with war gaming is the temptation to draw the conclusions you want to draw, and they also may not cater for randomness, such as the unit(s) which perform way above anything expected off them, or the units which suddenly become distinctly sub-par (cf. whole of the Russian military, Ukraine invasion 2022).

MissConductUS · 11/08/2022 16:08

War games are not magic binoculars that see into the future. Done properly, they can be useful to illustrate how lots of different variables interact and show paths that events may take.

In this particular war game, I think the takeaway is that it's not a clear and easy win for the Chinese. Given the enormous cost to China of anything other than a clear and easy win, exercises like this will give them pause.

ScrollingLeaves · 11/08/2022 16:11

@notimagain · Today 14:50
The problem with war gaming is the temptation to draw the conclusions you want to draw, and they also may not cater for randomness, such as the unit(s) which perform way above anything expected off them, or the units which suddenly become distinctly sub-par (cf. whole of the Russian military, Ukraine invasion 2022)

Yes, randomness is what I was thinking about too.

Excerpt from;
Chaos Theory
www.britannica.com/science/chaos-theory

In recent decades, however, a diversity of systems have been studied that behave unpredictably despite their seeming simplicity and the fact that the forces involved are governed by well-understood physical laws. The common element in these systems is a very high degree of sensitivity to initial conditions and to the way in which they are set in motion. For example, the meteorologist Edward Lorenz discovered that a simple model of heat convection possesses intrinsic unpredictability, a circumstance he called the “butterfly effect,” suggesting that the mere flapping of a butterfly’s wing can change the weather. (my bold)

I am not a scientist but was thinking of the theory of chaos applies in a more general way.

dibly · 11/08/2022 16:20

On a different note did anyone see the documentary on abuse in Russian prisons after newsnight last night? Horrific. If that’s what they do to their own, routine torture, humiliation and rape, then it’s not surprising how easily they turn to committing war crimes.

MissConductUS · 11/08/2022 16:57

Yes, randomness is what I was thinking about too.

The article mentions the use of twenty-sided dice to add an element of chance or randomness to the war game.

notimagain · 11/08/2022 17:36

MissConductUS · 11/08/2022 16:57

Yes, randomness is what I was thinking about too.

The article mentions the use of twenty-sided dice to add an element of chance or randomness to the war game.

FWIW many years back I used to war game at a very basic level recreationally, and even at that level there was dice throwing involved to decide the outcome (to some extent) of engagements....

Depending on their nature your units were credited with some base level of effectiveness (defensive/offensive etc), the throw just provided a bit/a lot of plus/minus on that..for example an infantry company attacking a well fortified enemy position might need to throw a 10 or higher to prevail, etc.

I think the problem might arise if playing such games now is what base level of effectiveness do you assign to say a Russian tank company?

Would it be such that unless "they" threw a 12 they would get towed off the board by the forces of the Ukraine Farmers (Tractor) Division?

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 11/08/2022 17:42

notimagain
Would it be such that unless "they" threw a 12 they would get towed off the board by the forces of the Ukraine Farmers (Tractor) Division?

Or drove it casually into a river? (OH says the driver might have assumed it was one of the amphibious ones.)

MissConductUS · 11/08/2022 17:56

FWIW many years back I used to war game at a very basic level recreationally, and even at that level there was dice throwing involved to decide the outcome (to some extent) of engagements....

I used to do this too - the really old-school games with paper maps, dice, and cardboard bits representing different units. American Civil War battles were my specialty.

Good point about the effectiveness. I think the games assume near-peer capabilities and effectiveness. Attrition is another variable that's hard to account for.

I know that war games are still used as teaching tools at West Point and the US Army War College, so they can't be completely useless.

ScrollingLeaves · 11/08/2022 18:11

@dibly · Today 16:20
On a different note did anyone see the documentary on abuse in Russian prisons after newsnight last night? Horrific. If that’s what they do to their own, routine torture, humiliation and rape, then it’s not surprising how easily they turn to committing war crimes.

I did not see it but heard about it on the radio news. I agree with what you say.

@MissConductUS · Today 16:57

“Yes, randomness is what I was thinking about too.”

The article mentions the use of twenty-sided dice to add an element of chance or randomness to the war game.

Ah, yes, I hadn’t quite realised the purpose of the dice. That must help a little in recreating random factors. Snakes and Ladders or Go to Jail elements.

@AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · Today 17:42

“notimagain
Would it be such that unless "they" threw a 12 they would get towed off the board by the forces of the Ukraine Farmers (Tractor) Division?”

Or drove it casually into a river? (OH says the driver might have assumed it was one of the amphibious ones.)

🤭😆

ScrollingLeaves · 12/08/2022 00:26

@dibly · Yesterday 16:20
On a different note did anyone see the documentary on abuse in Russian prisons after newsnight last night? Horrific. If that’s what they do to their own, routine torture, humiliation and rape, then it’s not surprising how easily they turn to committing war crimes.

I watched this on iPlayer tonight and it is harrowing. How sinister that they get violent criminal, long term inmates to carry it out in return for their own better well being as prisoners. That too is abuse. It is the world turned upside down.

Seeing that, there can be no question about the sorts of things they are doing to Ukrainian prisoners. I think they probably are incapable of any other sort of behaviour. It is institutionalised.

Torture is not a crime in Russia apparently.

I so hope the man who got the hard drive out does get asylum. It would be a terrible indictment of the West if he doesn’t.

In 2021, a prisoner smuggled videos out of a Russian prison, revealing some of the worst torture ever seen from Russia. BBC Eye investigates the story behind this alleged horrific prisoner abuse.
www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001b34z

Ijsbear · 12/08/2022 08:55

back again.

The updates tend to be quite long. If people find them spammy then say so and I'll curtail them a bit

Also, some IT admin on the ISW site was dozy and forgot to renew their certificate! my IT companion says that it's not going to be a problem in this case, as one doesn't enter personal info on the site.

Key Takeaways

Russian officials remain confused about the August 9 attack on the Saki Air Base in Russian-occupied Crimea, over 225km behind Russian lines, which destroyed at least eight Russian aircraft and multiple buildings.

The Kremlin’s changing plans suggest that occupying forces are most likely to move up the date of the annexation referenda in occupied Ukraine. Annexation makes it harder to imagine any negotiated settlement to the war on any terms that Ukraine or the West could accept, demonstrating that the Kremlin is fundamentally unserious about ending the war on any terms short of a Ukrainian surrender.

Iran reportedly began training Russian forces on Iranian UAV systems in recent weeks, demonstrating the deepening military cooperation between Iran and Russia.

Russian forces conducted ground attacks west of Izyum.

Russian forces continued limited ground assaults northeast and west of Bakhmut and likely made marginal gains in these areas.

Russian forces made marginal gains northwest of Donetsk City and are continuing attempts to push northwestward from current footholds on the outskirts of Donetsk City.

Russian forces conducted multiple unsuccessful offensives north and northeast of Kharkiv City.

Russian forces conducted an unsuccessful reconnaissance-in-force operation in northwestern Kherson Oblast

Russia’s Oryol Oblast is reportedly forming a volunteer battalion.

+++

www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/russia-and-iran-double-down-their-strategic-partnership well worth reading.

Putin may seek to benefit from Iranian leaders’ experience operating under heavy international sanctions and building military systems with devalued currencies and limited access to foreign parts. He is also apparently no longer trying to curb Iran's incursions into Syria.

Iran's leverage with Russia has increased.

+++

⚡️Ukraine resumes transit of Russian oil to Hungary, Slovakia via Druzhba pipeline.

⚡️US backs creating demilitarized zone around Russian-occupied nuclear plant.

⚡️Report: Russian oil production falls less than 3% compared to pre-war levels in July. (However, their revenues have significantly increased)

⚡️Turkey begins issuing long-term residency permits to Crimean Tatars in August.

⚡️Ukrainian military targets Russian stronghold, ammunition depot in the south

⚡️Official: School students to learn how to avoid mines.

⚡️Two export ships to leave Ukraine on Aug. 12.

⚡️Reuters: Ukraine’s top cyber official attends Black Hat hacker convention in US.
Victor Zhora, deputy head of Ukraine’s State Special Communications Service, attended a Black Hat hacker convention in Las Vegas on Aug. 10, according to Reuters. In his address, he said Ukraine has experienced 1,600 “major cyber incidents” since the invasion — triple the pre-war numbers. Zhora mentioned that the country has been moving its data to European data centers, with Microsoft, Amazon, and Google offering pro-bono cloud services.

⚡️Bloomberg: War sets Russian economy back 4 years in a quarter.

_

🛫 The Russian invaders have lost two squadrons of the latest Su-35 aircraft in Ukraine since the beginning of the full-scale war. Now the Russians are planning to use old bombers — the General Staff.

⚡️UN Security Council meeting regarding the situation around the Zaporizhzhia Nuclear Power Plant started in New York

📉 According to the International Energy Agency, oil production in Russia will decrease by about 20% at the beginning of next year, as the EU embargo will come into force in December 2022.

⚡️Up to 40% of Russian officers and generals, who planned the war in Ukraine, were removed from their offices. The Minister of Defense, Sergei Shoigu, and Valery Gerasimov, Chief of the Russian General Staff, retain their positions only because the Kremlin fears discrediting the top leadership.

+++

Results of the meeting of the UN Security Council regarding Zaporizhzhia NPP

▪️ IAEA Director General Rafael Grossi urged the parties to provide the mission with access to the Zaporizhzhia NPP. However, he noted that at present there is no threat to the safety of the nuclear power plant;

▪️ Russia's permanent representative to the UN, Nebenzya, accuses the Ukrainian Armed Forces of shelling the nuclear power plant. He argues this position by the fact that Russia has no reason to attack "neither itself, nor the station, nor Enerhodar." Nebenzya also said that the Russian Federation is ready to support the IAEA mission and will do everything to make it happen before the end of August;

▪️ Permanent Representative of Ukraine Serhiy Kislitsa said that the only way to eliminate the nuclear threat is to withdraw Russian troops and return control of the station to Ukraine. The US also called for the same;

▪️ The representative of China, who currently chairs the UN, called on Russia and Ukraine to return to peace talks.

Ukraine Invasion: Part 29
Ukraine Invasion: Part 29
blueshoes · 12/08/2022 09:34

@Ijsbear welcome back! Hope you managed to get some time to recharge and ready to face it all again.

Thanks again for the Key Takeaways. I look forward to it every morning and great to see it today Smile I don't find them spammy. It helps to see the same news on different sources as it gives weight.

I have stuff to do this morning but just wanted to say hi. Will come back and read later.

BoreOfWhabylon · 12/08/2022 09:35

I look forward to your updates @Ijsbear I'm sure no one finds them 'spammy'. Flowers

Natsku · 12/08/2022 10:53

I know that war games are still used as teaching tools at West Point and the US Army War College, so they can't be completely useless.
Use them in the Finnish military too, I think my BIL teaches with virtual ones.

Welcome back @Ijsbear good to have your updates again

ScrollingLeaves · 12/08/2022 11:10

Hello, @Ijsbear, it is nice that you’re back.
No, your Takeaways are not too long, and thank you for them.

MagicFox · 12/08/2022 11:14

Significant speech from US strategic Command:

twitter.com/us_stratcom/status/1557763572960215042?s=21&t=amcG77polnzypBGJ-T1-qw

OP posts:
Ijsbear · 12/08/2022 11:22

Thank you! it took about 4 days to relax and then 3 of actual enjoyment :D But it was lovely to be away and to see hills again. The NL is many good things, but Hilly ain't one of them.

Unexpected benefit of our first Ukrainian family being here, they could look after the cat and save a pile of cat hotel fees =)

Ijsbear · 12/08/2022 11:33

Very interesting thread that MagicFox thanks. Assertive and incisive.

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 12/08/2022 11:33

Ijsbear, welcome back, and I'm very glad you managed to relax and enjoy.

When you wrote
⚡️US backs creating demilitarized zone around Russian-occupied nuclear plant.

has it been mentioned that China too backed the proposal for a demilitarized zone? Or did I dream it? The radio was a bit in-the-background.

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