Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Chat

Join the discussion and chat with other Mumsnetters about everyday life, relationships and parenting.

Ukraine Invasion: Part 29

1000 replies

MagicFox · 18/07/2022 08:11

Welcome all, part 29

OP posts:
Thread gallery
108
Ijsbear · 09/08/2022 18:48

📱 Twitter has blocked the English version of the official account of the Russian Foreign Ministry for 7 days. The reason is incorrect information.

minsmum · 09/08/2022 18:53

They say there were 36 jets and 6 helicopters at the site

ScrollingLeaves · 09/08/2022 19:11

minsmum· Today 18:53
They say there were 36 jets and 6 helicopters at the site

If that is true, that is an enormous loss. It is hard to believe the Russians accidentally caused that damage themselves.

MissConductUS · 09/08/2022 19:24

ScrollingLeaves · 09/08/2022 19:11

minsmum· Today 18:53
They say there were 36 jets and 6 helicopters at the site

If that is true, that is an enormous loss. It is hard to believe the Russians accidentally caused that damage themselves.

The UAF are claiming credit for the attack, stating that it was done using a weapon of their manufacture. Speculation is a Neptune missile in ground attack mode.

twitter.com/mattia_n/status/1557016814986661895

The video shows multiple near-simultaneous explosions, which points away from sabotage or accidental ammo detonations.

ScrollingLeaves · 09/08/2022 19:35

@prettybird
Thank you for that about the AI accusations. I thought this was interesting too.
ChrisO
1/ The Italian journalist Cristiano Tinazzi
who's been reporting from Ukraine, has posted a long and informative eyewitness testimony of her experiences in Ukraine in response to amnesty’scontroversial report on Ukrainian military tactics. English translation below.

2/ From

In June I was in #Mykolaiv, in the south of the country. Every day the Russians bombarded the neighbourhood where I was with artillery, missiles and cluster bombs (one exploded 300 metres from me).
·
6 Aug
3/ Then I moved 5 km away from the Russians and lived for about ten days in a village on the #Dnipro river. Same situation. Constant Russian shelling of the village. The Ukrainian artillery was not in the village. It was far away

4/ In those days Amnesty contacted me on Facebook to ask me about the situation. I gave them my Ukrainian phone number. Nothing. I contacted the person again, he read and didn't even reply. Then that report comes out. Totally decontextualised from the ongoing conflict.

5/ I read it in good faith and say to myself, well sure, I also slept in a former school where there was a battalion. But there were no armoured vehicles or artillery pieces. A place to sleep, take turns from the front and feed hundreds of soldiers.

6/ One day we evacuated. The commander had received an intelligence report about a potential Russian bombing of the facility and evacuated the building for fear that civilians might be involved in the vicinity, as well as his soldiers.

7/ Then I wonder, and I will see this several times with my own eyes: in the disputed villages on the front line, in the grey zone, as is often the case, where a large part of the population has left, where the fuck do the soldiers sleep?

8/ In a barracks that doesn't exist and which would 100% be bombed immediately? On the ground in the fields? How do they feed them? It's obvious that if you move from village to village or town to town you use suitable facilities, be they private homes or public buildings.

9/
But contrary to what Amnesty says in that report I didn't see any shooting and I didn't see artillery being used on populated areas even where the inhabitants didn't want to leave.

10/ And I would have kicked their asses and taken them away if men had died bringing them food and aid because of them, but despite this, the Ukrainians were risking their lives to bring aid with volunteers and not bombing the area
·
11/ In the villages and countryside there is not much: the school and the cultural centre, shops. And sometimes the 'commune' building. Full stop.
There is not a fucking thing other than businesses and houses.
And the Russians often know everything, who is where and how.
·
12/ I could tell dozens and dozens of these stories I experienced first-hand in almost four months of frontline and thousands of kilometres travelled across the country.

13/ Then I reread the Amnesty report again in good faith and I wonder where those people live who have drafted with 4 testimonies [and] with absurd statements a conflict involving 40 million people.

14/ Because the cities have become fortifications and house-to-house combat theatres, the cities have also become fortresses because the citizens, the military and civilian volunteers, the soldiers of their country they are defending have turned them into such.
·
15/ Because they are resisters, not aggressors, because there is a military invasion and there is often no clear separation between civilians and military.

16/ Volunteer centres collect aid for fighters and civilians. So? Are they a target? No, they are not and this in no way justifies bombing entire towns and villages indiscriminately as the Russians do.

17/ And this below is the result of Amnesty's report, a report without context which has seen the Ukrainian section of the NGO parade itself and created disagreements in the Italian section, and which has shown unethical and strongly ideologised behaviour in the past. /end

ScrollingLeaves · 09/08/2022 19:40

“Thid below” refers to the image I have screenshoted.

Ukraine Invasion: Part 29
LoveLarry · 09/08/2022 20:02

Ijsbear · 09/08/2022 18:48

📱 Twitter has blocked the English version of the official account of the Russian Foreign Ministry for 7 days. The reason is incorrect information.

Really?

They need to do the Russian embassy in London too. They've had a couple of tweets hidden

And the Mr Bean look alike first deputy at the UN. His posts are outrageous

ScrollingLeaves · 09/08/2022 20:05

MissConductUS · Today 18:07

“ScrollingLeaves · Today 17:46
LoveLarry · Today 17:13
I love that Ukrainian officials keep their sense of humour”

twitter.com/iaponomarenko/status/1557035297019510786?s=21&t=vXdZL0ZcBpUod-frC7K1wA

Very dry humour about the dna or business card that may be found by the Russians. What did it mean about the hygienic cotton clothing? I didn’t get the joke there.”

If you look at the reply tweets it's explained. The words for clap and cotton are pronounced the same in Russian, and Russians have been using clap as a euphemism for an explosion.

Thank you very much for the explanation MissConduct.

ScrollingLeaves · 09/08/2022 20:21

@MissConductUS · Today 19:24

“ScrollingLeaves · Today 19:11

^minsmum· Today 18:53
They say there were 36 jets and 6 helicopters at the site^

“If that is true, that is an enormous loss. It is hard to believe the Russians accidentally caused that damage themselves.”

The UAF are claiming credit for the attack, stating that it was done using a weapon of their manufacture. Speculation is a Neptune missile in ground attack mode.

twitter.com/mattia_n/status/1557016814986661895

The video shows multiple near-simultaneous explosions, which points away from sabotage or accidental ammo detonations.

Thanks, MissConduct, after scrolling through your link I saw this Trent Telenko too.

Trent Telenko on Twitter: "This Ukrainian strike in Crimea should be no surprise. The Neptune anti-ship cruise missile has a back up GPS/Inertial guidance capability for land attack capability like the US Harpoon. 1/" / Twitter

mobile.twitter.com/mattia_n/status/1557016814986661895
mobile.twitter.com/TrentTelenko/status/1557017053890060291

blueshoes · 09/08/2022 20:56

@ScrollingLeaves thanks for the Italian journalist' perspective on the Amnesty International article.

It is shameful for AI to deliberately turn a blind eye to the Ukrainian side of the story and publish a clearly ideologically motivated piece. I am glad my DH cancelled his subscription and hope others out there do so too. This has really opened my eyes to the fact that AI is not fit for purpose and is in fact a downright dangerous self-serving organisation.

Ijsbear · 09/08/2022 21:26

My companion is making firm noises that this is Holiday Time and not Sink Your Energy Into Ukraine Analysis time, so I shall be sensible and return in 2 more days when we're home :-)

Our 1st Ukrainian family are looking after the cat beautifully grateful

blueshoes · 09/08/2022 21:47

Ijsbear · 09/08/2022 21:26

My companion is making firm noises that this is Holiday Time and not Sink Your Energy Into Ukraine Analysis time, so I shall be sensible and return in 2 more days when we're home :-)

Our 1st Ukrainian family are looking after the cat beautifully grateful

@Ijsbear tell your companion it is HIMARS Time. Don't listen to me. Enjoy the rest of your break. We will still be around in 2 days, debating and analysing.

There is something about Ukrainians and their pets Flowers. That the cat is well looked must put your mind at ease.

Ijsbear · 09/08/2022 22:07

Laughed out loud at that, yes, definitely it should be HIMARS time! :) ty!

minsmum · 09/08/2022 22:42

mobile.twitter.com/mhmck/status/1557032076007858178 mass exodus of Russians from Crimea

blueshoes · 09/08/2022 23:47

@minsmum thanks for the link.

Buried in that tweet, I spotted this article by Brian E. Frydenborg. Not sure of his credentials but this article explains HOW Ukraine will win and he does believe it
too. A long and feel good article if you dream of this war ending in Ukraine's favour without a long stalemate but wonder how it can be done. He ends by saying Bet on Ukraine (Don’t Bet on Russia) with the best photo from the Mariupol steel works.

Would appreciate any military thoughts on it.

realcontextnews.com/how-ukraine-war-will-likely-go-rest-of-2022-or-kherson-the-beginning-of-the-end-for-russia/

How Ukraine War Will Likely Go Rest of 2022, or, Kherson: The Beginning of the End for Russia
August 3, 2022 Brian E. Frydenborg
...
July has seen the end of one phase of the war and the beginning of another, with Russia now trying to stave off disaster in the south by taking troops from the east that are still much-needed in the east, and yet, Russia has little choice: if it does not reinforce the south, it risks having almost all of its position there being steamrolled rapidly by the coming Ukrainian onslaught.
...
So far, that seems to be the path the Russians have chosen: weakening one front [East] even after they had pretty much already stalled there to reinforce another front [South] where they would have been crushed relatively quickly if they did not reinforce from that first front, with the most likely result that they will lose on both fronts, just less quickly in the south and now more quickly in the east (as opposed to really quickly in the south and less quickly in east).

Such is the dilemma—the trap—in which Russia has found itself: choosing how quickly or slowly to lose on one front or another, any serious victory out or reach regardless of any decisions about conventional forces (unless Ukraine starts suddenly making disastrous choices on the battlefield) and I seriously doubt Putin will use nuclear weapons, which could hurt Russia in the long-run more than any imagined gains Putin thinks their use would get him.
..
Bet on Ukraine (Don’t Bet on Russia)

That’s it folks: much better, numerically superior Ukrainian forces under much better leadership with much better weapons and equipment, much better morale, and a much better supply situation are going to clash with Russian forces inferior in all of those aspects.

It is hard to not see these Ukrainians eventually make their way to the Donbas and roll up or push back the main Russian line there at terrible, irreplaceable-anytime-soon-for-Russia cost.

It may take a while, and Ukraine will certainly suffer casualties of its own, perhaps also high, but Ukrainians have the will, resources, and leadership to do this and the Russians have none of those to stop them.

If you still doubt that Russia could really lose this badly, ask yourself this: where will Russia get high-quality troops and top-of-the-line equipment, let alone troops with anything approaching high morale, to be able to deploy in the south or the east to stop the coming Ukrainian onslaught?

They can now barely supply their own artillery in the east, their best advantage in this war, and I would challenge anyone to explain how this current situation—already bad for Russia—improves overall and consistently over the coming days, weeks, and months.

Russia has no answer to this question, and thus little hope against their determined and far more confident, qualitatively-better Ukrainian foe that is redefining the playbook on modern warfare.

The battles for Kherson, and the moment when the Ukrainian southern forces can join their brothers in the east and position themselves to flank the entire Russian line or force it to fall back, will very likely be the key remaining fights of this war.

Russia might manage to hold onto some pockets of territory for a while—including a Crimea isolated and under siege—but there is real reason to think the defenders in these places will eventually cave after the rest of the Russian forces are killed or routed, hampered by their consistently awful supply situation and laughable Russian leadership.

And morale matters: when and when it breaks, many soldiers can be rendered combat ineffective even without being killed, wounded, or captured.
...
We can sure hope, and while so often hope is placed on flimsy shoulders, I really, really like Ukraine’s odds for all the reasons outlined above.

MissConductUS · 10/08/2022 15:05

There has been a lot of discussion of the Taiwan vs PRC issue on this thread, so I thought some might find this interesting. TL:DR, a sophisticated war gaming exercise concluded that China does not have the military assets to successfully invade Taiwan currently.

War Game Finds U.S., Taiwan Can Defend Against a Chinese Invasion - All sides would pay a heavy price if ever there were a military conflict over the island

WASHINGTON—In the first three weeks after invading Taiwan, China sank two multibillion-dollar U.S. aircraft carriers, attacked American bases across Japan and on Guam, and destroyed hundreds of advanced U.S. jet fighters.

China’s situation was, if anything, worse. It landed troops on Taiwan and seized the island’s southern third, but its amphibious fleet was decimated by relentless U.S. and Japanese missile and submarine attacks and it couldn’t resupply its own forces. The capital, Taipei, was secure in Taiwanese hands, and Beijing was low on long-range ballistic missiles to counter America’s still-potent air and maritime power.

This complex daylong war game, played out late last week at a Washington think tank, demonstrated how destructive any attempted Chinese invasion of Taiwan could be across the Indo-Pacific—and what a forbidding challenge the island would be for Beijing’s military forces.

The exercise—involving “Red” and “Blue” teams, maps, 20-sided dice and complex computer calculations—seemed less like a simulation than a preview of a possible future. In the real world, as the game unfurled, China launched missiles around Taiwan and near Japan, part of a massive show of military might to protest a Taiwan visit by House Speaker Nancy Pelosi.

“No one thought this was realistic until the last few years,” said retired Air Force Brig. Gen. Paula Thornhill, one of the participants. In the past, she said, war gamers were sometimes accused of being “warmongers,” but since then, China has increased both its military capabilities and aspirations.

China has pledged to reunify Taiwan, which Beijing considers a renegade province, with the mainland, and hasn’t ruled out using military force. Russia’s unexpected early setbacks in its invasion of Ukraine may have given Chinese President Xi Jinping pause, some analysts say. Others worry Mr. Xi has drawn the opposite lesson: use maximum force and strike Taiwan’s leadership from the start.

The 7-hour war game, simulating three weeks of combat, illustrated what a daunting task it would be for China to launch an amphibious invasion across the 100-mile Taiwan Strait, even with its military advances of recent years.

“Probably the biggest [takeaway] is, under most assumptions, the United States and Taiwan can conduct a successful defense of the island. That’s different from many people’s impressions,” said Mark Cancian, a senior adviser at the Center for Strategic and International Studies think tank, which hosted the game in its Washington offices.

But the cost would be high: Taiwan’s economy would be shattered, and the U.S. military so battered that it would take years to rebuild, with repercussions for America’s global power.

Some U.S. military commanders have pointed to 2027, the 100th anniversary of the founding of China’s People’s Liberation Army, as a possible invasion date.

Becca Wasser, another of the game participants, said 2036 is a likelier time frame. “In 2027, China is unlikely to have the ability to successfully launch an amphibious invasion of Taiwan,” said Ms. Wasser, a fellow at the Center for a New American Security think tank. If so, she said, “that suggests they are going to take another approach.”

Many specialists say the large-scale live-fire exercises China is conducting following Mrs. Pelosi’s visit portend a strategy of blockading Taiwan and squeezing rather than flattening it into submission.

The war games, which specialists said are similar to classified games the Pentagon conducts, were designed to test how various scenarios play out, as well as how the Chinese and U.S.-led sides react to one another’s moves, and the impact of their weapons inventories.

The imagined conflict is set in 2026, and each side is limited to military capabilities it has demonstrated in real life. The opposing teams take turns at maps of the Pacific region populated with game pieces denoting military dispositions, conferring on strategy. They then move to a detailed map of Taiwan. Computers calculate everything from the size of aircraft runways to how long it takes submarines to rearm. The dice introduce an element of randomness.

“This is the only such game that’s in the public domain,” said Mr. Cancian, who spent two years designing the game along with experts from Massachusetts Institute of Technology and the Naval War College. The game’s creators, he said, wanted to be able to share the results with a broader audience than is possible with classified ones.

The war-game scenario assumes China has decided to attack Taiwan and that the U.S.—which officially has a policy of “strategic ambiguity” about whether it would defend the island militarily—comes to Taipei’s aid. The game didn’t include the potential role of nuclear weapons.

This day’s game, the 17th in a series of 22, began with pessimistic assumptions for the U.S.: It is distracted by a separate crisis in Europe, slowing its surge of forces to the Pacific. Meanwhile, Taiwan’s ability to respond has been hampered by Chinese information operations and sabotage.

China, played by the red team, attacks aggressively, hoping to subdue Taiwan as quickly as possible while staving off an expected American response.

The Chinese military shoots ballistic missiles at U.S. air bases in Japan and an aircraft carrier strike group in the Pacific, destroying several squadrons of jet fighters and sinking the carrier and other U.S. ships. It deploys a defensive picket line of surface ships on Taiwan’s east coast and bombs the island’s infrastructure to interfere with Taiwan’s movement of ground troops. Finally, China lands 22,000 troops on Taiwan’s southeast coast and fights slowly northward, hoping to seize a port or airfield while avoiding cities and the urban warfare that comes with them.

But as the days drag on, the momentum shifts to the U.S. and Japan. Despite horrific losses in ships, aircraft and personnel, American forces bomb Chinese ports, eliminate the picket line of ships and successfully attack Beijing’s weak spot—the amphibious ships its needs to ferry troops and supplies to Taiwan.

A red team player, perusing a map of Taiwan’s daunting geography, muses on a different strategy: “In real life, we would have to try a decapitation strike” against the island’s leaders.

Ms. Wasser, who was also on the red team, said: “Rather than a draw, it’s very much a feeling of—well, nobody won, but nobody lost either.”

blueshoes · 10/08/2022 19:06

@MissConductUS interesting article. To think that such detailed war games can be simulated and the outcome not a decisive win for China yet. I read another article (possibly also WSJ) which said that looking at China's current 'display', they could not at this stage even do a successful blockade of Taiwan, not even talking about invasion.

Of course things will change in the future.

I have wondered about military drills and exercises. Granted that armies need to practise their moves, is it always a good thing to show your hand to the enemy. Presumably every exercise will be closely watched by the other side to check out the military capability and hardware. It is always a good thing to show one's hand? For example, the takeaway is that China will most likely attempt a blockage i.e. squeeze Taiwan, rather than attack/invade it. If Taiwan knows this, they will focus on strategies to counter a blockade. Could these exercises instead of showing where you are strong, also show where you are weak.

For me, I would be concerned if my missile launcher failed. It will be quite embarrassing.

notimagain · 10/08/2022 19:26

It is always a good thing to show one's hand?

Thing is with any of these exercises, demos and other things is there's also perhaps an opportunity to miss lead any potential opponents.

I knew somebody once upon a time whose job for a while in the Cold War was part of a military delegation organised to watch what went on in East Germany... (all legit, Russians did similar on the western side.)...

He reckoned quite a lot of what was done by the Warsaw Pact Armies in full view on things like exercises was smoke and mirrors, proper "maskirovka" and you only really started to find out real capabilities and intentions by skulking around outside barracks at odd times of days and nights..looking for mundane things like the number of breakdown trucks that made repeated journeys out to exercise areas....

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BRIXMIS

blueshoes · 10/08/2022 20:11

@notimagain thanks for your perspective.

It makes sense that armies would want to look more powerful than they actually are as a deterrent to attack. Like a military version of Potemkin Villages.

Thanks for introducing me to the word "maskirovka". Looks like Russia has taken maskirovka or the military doctrine of deception and denial to new levels. Putin denied he was invading Crimea in 2014 and then Ukraine in 2022 right up to the point that he invaded and could not deny any more. To Russia fake news is now real news and lying is as natural as breathing. Russian lips are moving = lying = national pastime.

I was quite impressed with the example given in the "maskirovka" wikipedia entry of how Zhukov created fake tanks to pretend that an army was unloading at a decoy railhead to distract and draw Luftwaffe airstrikes away from the other 2 railheads where real armies and equipment were being unloaded.

I wonder how much of such clever maskirovka is being deployed by Russia in the Ukraine theatre. I remember the disastrous repeated crossings by Russia over the Siverskyi Donets River in eastern Ukraine in which their pontoons kept getting destroyed by Ukraine over again. The Russian army was slow to learn from their mistakes. Their soldiers are also described as 'dumb' and 'orcs'. Perhaps lying, looting, brute force and atrocities run deeper in the Russian military psyche than clever deceptive battlefield tactics that require thought and planning.

MissConductUS · 10/08/2022 21:08

The attack on the airfield in Crimea may have been done by special forces or partisans instead of stand off weapons.

www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/crimea-airfield-blast-was-work-of-ukrainian-special-forces-official-says/ar-AA10vIaI?li=BBnb7Kz

Or this may be Ukrainian disinformation. It's amusingly ironic that every time the Ukrainians achieve a major success like this (or the Moskva) the Russians blame their own ineptness. Lesser of two evils I guess.

blueshoes · 10/08/2022 21:26

I read that it was a couple of explosions in different areas in the same airfield over the course of an hour. It would be quite amazing work if it was done by special forces or partisans as opposed to missiles. Or just Russian ammo spontaneously exploding. Shit happens.

Photos of people at the Crimean beach resort in rows of white wooden cabanas gazing at the explosions from afar. What a jarring justaposition of war and idyll. I did not know that Crimea is such a paradise for Russians. I always thought of it as a Russian drought hole.

Video on social media of a tearful Russian woman now having to evacuate Crimea. She says ''I don't want to leave Crimea at all... it's so amazing here. We were living here like its our home, everything is wonderful. It feels like home!'.

World's smallest violin comes to mind.

MagicFox · 11/08/2022 07:54

Couple of good Twitter hauls this morning.

Thread by Mick Ryan: threadreaderapp.com/thread/1557593978014289920.html

Article from the Asia Society Policy Institute, "2022, Xi Jinping’s Annus Horribilis: Or is it?" : asiasociety.org/policy-institute/2022-xi-jinpings-annus-horribilis-or-it

OP posts:
LoveLarry · 11/08/2022 08:56

The Ukrainian ministry of defence, in common with most official sources, continue to keep their sense of humour

This Twitter post made me laugh

twitter.com/defenceu/status/1557621932429819907?s=21&t=Zp9xl51kR1PjRIBr3td6Uw

ScrollingLeaves · 11/08/2022 09:18

@blueshoes · Yesterday 21:26
I think I saw that woman you meant in the Twitter LoveLarry posted today, crying over leaving Crimea, saying ‘I don’t want to leave, it’s so cool here.’ It is extraordinary to think how clueless she is about what has been going on.
@MagicFox MagicFox · Today 07:54
Thank you for those sobering articles. It is so concerning. I worry that we have got used to peace for ourselves for so long that we may be ‘mushy’ enough to get bayoneted.

ScrollingLeaves · 11/08/2022 09:24

@MissConductUS · Yesterday 15:05
There has been a lot of discussion of the Taiwan vs PRC issue on this thread, so I thought some might find this interesting. TL:DR, a sophisticated war gaming exercise concluded that China does not have the military assets to successfully invade Taiwan currently.

Are there records showing war games prove to be accurate when compared with events that subsequently happen? My guess is that in real life there are often chaotic/ random factors that can come into the play.
I can see though that they must be useful for thinking out strategies as far as possible.

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.
Swipe left for the next trending thread