1 in 4 pregnancies ends in abortion?

[MultiBird]

Reading the BBC article about the US ruling, it says that in the US 1 in 6 pregnancies ends in abortion, which I thought seemed very high, but I looked it up and it's 1 in 4 in UK.

I'd fight very hard indeed if anyone challenged a woman's right to choose here, but isn't that very high? Is there some truth in the argument that it's being used as contraception? I've heard it said before and dismissed it as ridiculous but 25%?!

Bear with me a sec and I'll post the links.

Millions of women up and down the country do see that 'bunch of cells' as a baby, hence women (and even men) grieving the loss of early miscarriages.

That's the difference between wanted or unwanted. Nothing to do with biology.

If somebody does the same thing over and over again it can't really be called a mistake can it? Wilful negligence at best.

But what's the alternative? Forced those women to give birth? Force them on contraception? Force them to get sterilised? Force more unwanted babies in the world?

Seriously what's your solution?

What I find most abhorrent is Barely using women who have had a miscarriage. She is entitled to her (wrong) views, but to use women as a "gotcha", well.....

This is simply the semantics used to try and remove the emotion from the fact that women are choosing to kill their unborn child. That's what they are. Whether at foetal stage or not. They are an unborn child.

&If the rhetoric about cells etc is so true, why are women who miscarry these cells mourning the deaths of their unborn babies?*

They're mourning potential. Not actual life.

Thread worms are actual lives. You don't see the issue with removing them from your body do you? Yet you're murdering hundreds if not thousands of actual lives. Just because they're not human doesn't mean they're not alive.

Hang about, you're calling us twisted for not agreeing with some women's blase attitude to repeat abortions. Personally I would reserve that label for the ones who continue getting pregnant after abortions only to then repeat the cycle.

Mumsnet is so fucking intolerant of anybody else's opinions that doesn't go with the grain. I know dozens of people IRL who don't agree with the type of behaviour I'm taking a dim view of. Dozens. Mumsnet does not represent the majority IRL at all. Its a very cliquey website and alot of posters share similar values IE not supporting trans issues whereas IRL most people I know do.

You support abortion in all circumstances, good for you. Not everybody does. You cannot police my opinion.

I don't think it should be made illegal, but I cannot get on board with the thinking that its OK to use it as a form of late contraception.

Not you plural, just you.

I'm with you on the trans thing and I'm a sole voice most day, so you cant accuse me of that.

I dont have an issue with your views on abortion. I have an issue with you using women who have miscarriages to justify your argument.

@Barelyfunctioning3 don't try and bring trans issues into the argument. They have fuck all to do with the right to abortion.

And yes you are twisted because contraception can fail. Just because you've never been that unlucky doesn't mean others haven't. My youngest child is a pill failure. My aborted twins were conceived despite using condoms.
You're also twisted because it doesn't matter what reason a woman has an abortion. You don't get to judge who was worthy enough of one or not

Excuse me, I had my own miscarriages in mind when drawing reference PP's mentioning of miscarriages.

What is 'a ball of cells' to some people holds much more importance to others. Neither position is right or wrong, merely a difference in perception. Just because you think of it as a ball of cells doesn't mean everybody else does or has to.

Try to be more tolerant of other people's opinions.

Ita a cheap shot to make out like barely is being ganged up on when actually it's that herviews are offensive.

Ita a cheap shot to make out like barely is being ganged up on when actually it's that herviews are offensive.

Indeed. If she wasn't being offensive people wouldn't take offence

If you bothered reading my posts properly you would know I'm not talking about contraception failure, I'm talking about the women (and men as i highlight previously) who don't use contraception at all and think of abortion as a quick fix. Rinse and repeat.

Feel free to ignore that and accuse me of attacking all women though.. that's usually the go-to narrative when somebody expresses feeling uncomfortable about abortion in certain circumstances.

Excuse me, I had my own miscarriages in mind when drawing reference PP's mentioning of miscarriages.

So you're using your own miscarriages as a gotcha. "I suffered miscarriages and felt that they were lives so no other woman can possibly have an abortion because they simply don't fancy having a kid"

And I say that as someone who gets hammered on the trans threads regularly

who don't use contraception at all and think of abortion as a quick fix. Rinse and repeat. and if you had read my posts from the beginning of this thread you'd see that that doesn't matter so what if they're using abortion to prevent having a child. That's literally what it's there for.

No one said you are attacking all women.

We said you are sitting in judgement.

I've been on mumsnet long enough to have seen hundreds of women criticised for getting pregnant, it happens on an alarmingly regular basis here.

"Why aren't you on contraception? Why would you have children with this man? You're stupid bringing a baby into this situation"

Some people take a dim view of cavalier use of abortion and carelessness with contraception, deal with it.

Abortion is healthcare. Simple as that. As early as possible as late as necessary.

Some people take a dim view of cavalier use of abortion and carelessness with contraception, deal with it.

Oh I am dealing with it. By pointing out that your dim view and your judgement of women who don't want to be pregnant is irrelevant to the fact that abortions exist, should exist and should be free, legal and safe for all women to access the world over.

Right so now your victim tactic didnt work, you're now implying we are in the minority.
nice one.

Some people take a dim view of cavalier use of abortion and carelessness with contraception, deal with it.

And when I was growing up , a lot of people took a very dim view of using contraception. Socially, abstinence until marriage was best, but if that didn't happen it was more socially acceptable to have an abortion or 4 or 5 (a view common amongst poor women and female medical professionals alike) than be on the pill. Condoms were kind of ok, but generally accepted men didn't like them so,you know. Out of mum's colleagues (on a maternity ward out of all places) , several had had multiple abortions.

I was prescribed the pill as a young teen for irregular periods, I had one lot that was given to me then and there and then never had access to it until I was old enough to procure it myself.

You see, an abortion was a mistake,being stupid, etc ,being on the pill told everyone you were promiscuous ,easy and up for it. Those people would be horrified at your cavalier attitude to birth control.

People have all kinds of opinions, that doesn't mean they are right, or that those opinions have any place when it comes to women's rights,contraception,abortion or legislation of those things.

FFS its very simple. Conception statistics consist of two figures;

1. Live births and stillbirths, and
2. Legal abortions. They do not include miscarriages.

Therefore 1 in 4 pregnancies do NOT result in a termination.
Its a fake fact. A misuse of the conception statistics, and its commonly pushed on anti abortion websites.

''Conception statistics are estimates. Conceptions include maternities (that is, the number of pregnant women who give birth) and abortions. This information is obtained from administrative sources: abortion notifications and birth registrations. Maternities that result in one or more live births or stillbirths are counted only once. Conception statistics do not include miscarriages''
www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/conceptionandfertilityrates/methodologies/userguidetoconceptionstatistics

www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/conceptionandfertilityrates/bulletins/conceptionstatistics/2019

fullfact.org/health/miscarriage-abortion-data/

The Times and the Daily Mail have both reported that a quarter of pregnancies in England and Wales lead to abortion.
This is sourced to new data from the Office for National Statistics (ONS) for 2019, and marks the first time legal abortions have increased to this level, since records began in 1990.
However, there’s one big caveat which means the figure being reported isn’t accurate.
The ONS’s data captures the number of abortions as a proportion of the number of pregnancies which ended in a live birth, a stillbirth or an abortion.
This means it doesn’t take into account the sadly quite large number of pregnancies which end in miscarriage (when the pregnancy is lost during the first 23 weeks), which the ONS does specify.
But neither The Times nor the Mail’s reports mention this important detail.

The number of miscarriages isn’t officially recorded, but Tommy’s National Centre for Miscarriage Research estimates that one in eight pregnancies ended in miscarriage, where the mother knew they were pregnant and had miscarried.
It estimates one in five pregnancies in total end in miscarriage, amounting to around 250,000 each year in the UK.
If these were factored into the ONS’s calculations, the proportion of pregnancies which end in abortion would be considerably lower, perhaps around one in five, rather than one in four, as reported.

Though I suspect stance of vast majority of UK population is early as possible but late as necessary.

The USA has a very high maternal death rat.

www.statista.com/statistics/1240400/maternal-mortality-rates-worldwide-by-country/ it was 17.4 per 100000 live births in 2019 - UK is 6.5 per 100000 live births higher than many of our European neighbours.

These are pretty shocking figures but there never seems to be much concern about them.

Why do so many US women die giving birth?

BBC: While progress has been made to curb death rates among women in other countries, the US has seen an increase since the year 2000.

I would like to apologise for my clumsily worded post upthread. As @ldontWanna has pointed out, it is the difference between a planned and wanted baby and an unplanned and very much unwanted baby.

I have also had a miscarriage which was termed a spntaneous abortion.

I don't think many women think that having an abortion is an easy option.