Middle class indicators 2022 part 2

[Pullandpush]

Current thread has 1000 posts so restarting.. Was asked at the end of the last thread what I would identify as & I am solidly working class due to working hard to pay our mortgage, kids in state school & having a very modest lifestyle.

I think it's really simple. If you're working/claiming and can't afford luxuries without using credit cards, just making ends meet you're WC. If you don't need to check your bank balance at the end of each month, have any "investments" have no idea what the cheapest of anything is you just buy the brands you like and have any "staff" you're UC anything in between in MC.

He even makes his own hummus, but he will never, ever be MC.

@hilblaudh878 IT as in tech sector or IT as in when you're at work you have an issue and they log on and fix your issues with emails or internet etc? Because those are quite different, tech is very well paid, some seniors have really high salaries, akin to investment bankers

I see you've defined LMC and UMC which is interesting. How would you then define MMC, what kind of jobs etc?

@Octomore @hilblaudh878 also, I have a friend who is a GP in London and they earn £100k starting salary. Partners obviously get more. Doctors should definitely earn more as they are grossly underpaid. DH is one and there are currently talks regarding striking. He feels bad though because of the potential effects. But something needs to be done as they are not valued or adequately remunerated

IT as in tech sector

@Mork4 really interesting. I'd be interested to see the specific examples for each of the things you mention, e.g. what kind of holiday would be considered MC, or designer wear?

@hilblaudh878 ahh thought so. Tech workers are very well paid. IT professionals not so much unless they go into consultancy or become very senior at a great company and that can take a while

@hilblaudh878 sorry my comment above was for you:

I see you've defined LMC and UMC which is interesting. How would you then define MMC, what kind of jobs etc?

Like a lot of things, you can identify it via markers, but the markers are not the essence of the "thing".

"middle class" means not working class (propping up the economy and workforce with hard labour or service work and live pay packet to pay packet) and the wealthy.

I think middle is anyone who isn't being fucked over on a daily basis by the price hikes etc. etc. If you are still comfortable and not drowning then you're middle.

Maybe the name "working" class has outgrown its meaning but "middle" I think is pretty easily defined as in the middle of the mess - not great not terrible -

@sunja I see you've defined LMC and UMC which is interesting. How would you then define MMC, what kind of jobs etc?

since the last financial crisis - i think its really changed. so in terms of jobs in London, I just dont know anymore, there seems to be a massive gap between LMC and UMC with little in between. There are few jobs where you will earn 80-90k by 33 guaranteed - there are jobs when you will be on 100k plus and 50k guaranteed but 80-90k which would be my definition of a MMC - not sure. Maybe GPs...hospital docs earn decent though few gps will be partners by their early-mid 30s i.e. when London mc couples have families and tend to solidify their social class status.

What class are you, if you don’t work & live on your own means but are not retired?

@ivykaty44 I suppose it depends what kind of lifestyle they are living and if they claim any benefits? How far from retirement are they?

@hilblaudh878 household income of £80-90k or combined?

Sorry that should be household income or individual earnings of £90-90k @hilblaudh878

sunja Leaving on own means, no benefits. It’s a common grade in the census to generally mean you have your own money and possible investment which give you an income without working

@ivykaty44 Definitely MC

@sunja early 50s so approximately 12/15 years away from the government retirement age

@sunja no i would say MMC is guaranteed individual salary of 80k guaranteed by mid 30s....in terms of sectors/professions, I genuinely have no idea in London, perhaps with the exception of GPs. Would love to hear if anyone else can think of any.

so in practice you then have individuals who are MMC and then it depends on their partners as to whether their household budget is MMC. E.g. you can be on 80k and a civil servant age 33-35 or in HR or the arts i.e. rather than MMC professions, you now have MMC persons i.e. through their own skills or career progression make it e.g. head teacher of a secondary school age 35 or a professor in uni or a musician or creative or whichever but thats on the back of their ability to progress rather than a profession per se

Yes I agree with this.

I think of myself as middle class. My dad was a doctor and my mother a medical social worker (part time after three kids). We had a nice house in suburbia but no way could they afford private school fees for three kids. What was important to them was art and culture - so second hand cars but went to the theatre frequently. We had piano lessons and ballet and I had horse riding lessons once a week. We went on holiday once a year - alternating abroad with a drive up the country to a bnb every other year. Of course back then there was one static phone, one TV and no computers/tablets/gaming consoles!
I married a city lawyer who earned a lot more than my dad ever did. Our kids did have a private education. But again second hand cars, holiday abroad every other year. He had an ex who got all the equity from their home plus good alimony. But we were certainly comfortable.
I think of upper class as not necessarily down to money but 'breeding' and fairly static (born into it), but I think born working class can move up to middle class. I don't think someone in a white collar job owing a home and car and holidays abroad and not having to worry about bills can still be considered working class. And I don't think considering yourself working class denotes a superior moral worth - my father's and my husband's wealth were their own built up by working extremely hard, but they did have privilege of birth, even if (in my husband's case) he was the first in his family to go to university (Oxford too)!

Me and my DP earn £45,000 between us. I'm pretty sure you'd think we were MC though if you met us

@hilblaudh878 I think lawyers could be MMC as although very high earning, that doesn't necessarily make them UMC, I suppose that's the case with many other high paying professions though.

I consider UMC to be very financially comfortable all round, second properties whether renting or for leisure, kids in private school, multiple holidays a year, no money worries at all, money that enables them to pursue any hobbies they want etc

@easyday how did you find balancing private school fees with holidays and everything else that comes with a MC life? Many people on this thread and the last have stated it can be very difficult to do and many people these days cannot feasibly afford it

Another potential marker could be business/first class travel. I would say that is UMC though