Middle class indicators 2022 part 2

[Pullandpush]

Current thread has 1000 posts so restarting.. Was asked at the end of the last thread what I would identify as & I am solidly working class due to working hard to pay our mortgage, kids in state school & having a very modest lifestyle.

And who says class is not immutable? Do you know how it feels to grow up in one life then be told you don’t belong to that place anymore? It’s weird.

As stated above, I grew up WC but now have the income/profession/social capital that would make me MC.

I don't feel out of place when I'm with my (WC) family and friends though. Why would I?

It's to feel superior in a lot of cases. It doesn't matter if you have a well paid job and are doing well financially, bringing up polite children and giving them lots of opportunities. If you don't speak properly or have a degree you will absolutely be looked down on.

But I don't think it is sensible to claim that class is immutable.

Is Lord Alan Sugar still WC do you think? He has money, power, connections, influence, a peerage etc. As far as I am concerned, there is no way he would still be WC, no matter what he calls his nan.

Sadly this is often true. And these threads have examples of it in spades.

of course the obsession with labelling people because of ‘indicators’ risks making people feel out of place. You have a house full of books so can’t be working-class any longer, which makes you question who and what you are. It’s like saying people with duel heritage have to pick a side. I find it quite dangerous to be honest.

In my view, the hobbies / trends / indicators etc are nonsense.

It comes down to cash, influence, social and cultural capital. What sort of cushion does someone have to protect them from the consequences of a mistake? (e.g. family money, connections) And those things can change throughout someone's life.

But it’s clear that hobbies are important to most others.

Only because it means they can think (but not say out loud) "Oh well, naturally I'm better than the oiks on the council estate because I read books, enjoy tasteful cultural activities, and am fit and outdoorsy. Everyone knows that all the riffraff do in their spare time is watch their 99" TVs"

Then they go out and buy whatever trendy but understated expensive paraphernalia is applicable to their specific tribe, to make sure that everyone who sees them also knows they are definitely better than the oiks.

Somehow they manage to ignore the fact that the main difference between them and WC people is actually just money and privilege.

Re the ‘wrong’ plants in the garden, I well remember the mother of a dd’s friend from school - expensive house in an expensive private road - complaining bitterly that plants in a neighbour’s front garden were seriously lowering the tone and should be banned.
She was Austrian!

IMO it’s rubbish to say that only Brits have a thing about class. Other nationalities may not use the same terminology but it’s a thing in many countries. For a start I’ve known some seriously snobbish French people, and what about Yanks, who talk of ‘trailer trash’ or people who ‘live in the projects’ (i.e. social housing) - this is def. a thing where my sister lives in Massachusetts.

The PP on this thread who spluttered with indignation at the idea that WC people might go hiking ("As if WC people would drive to the Lakes in a hybrid and go for a walk in £600 kit! The very idea!") was a perfect example.

Her image of herself revolves around being better than the WC. So she lashed out at the idea of the WC appropriating what she sees as a MC defining characteristic. Because that characteristic is part of how she differentiates herself from the WC.

In her mind, it was also impossible to separate the hobby (hiking) from the paraphernalia which you buy to make sure everyone knows about your wholesome hobby. The idea of doing the hobby without the expensive external signifiers did not compute.

Where did anyone say that one class is "better" than the other?
I certainly don't think that ?

Is it mainly people who have shifted class who obsess about this stuff? Because I am solidly MC going back generations and so is my career /financial situation and except for when I see.a thread on Mumsnet I can't say I give it much thought. I do things I enjoy, buy things I like, etc without every contemplating what it might tell people about my class

Maybe. It certainly speaks of insecurity.

Sometimes I think it's just out and out snobbery. Or maybe fear?

When the UC apply bizarre arcane etiquette rules that are designed to catch out anyone who didn't have a specific upbringing, maybe it stems from fear that the new upstarts will oust them? After all, the up and coming folk have recently earned their wealth rather than just coasting on their great x20 grandfather's ability to toady up to the monarch of the time many years ago.

Well said

It does feel like a fear thing. Like people being worried immigrants will take their jobs. Middle-class mothers on here can barely conceal their anger that dc from comps may take their privately educated child’s place at Oxbridge. If I could do anything to hasten the demise of the class system I would.

I do thino that it'sworth pointing out that you probably won't think much about social capital/money/influence/status etc. when you have plenty of it.

It's those with none or very little that notice the difference most acutely.

A bit like when wealthy people say that money doesn't matter/isn't important. Well money definitely is important if you've got none but need to put a roof over your head and food on the table!

I have been on the wrong side of class snobbery many times in my life. It really hurts. I wonder if people who wallow in this shit understand that?

@Tsandjdarethrbest I'm sorry to hear that. What kinds of things have happened? It's awful when people are unkind to others because they think they are 'better'

One thing I would also add is that I think Le Creuset is quite MC

Damn, my wc self has always had 100s of books around. I even have some atlases and dictionaries 😜
But yes, I agree with your points 100%.

@sunja Where do I start? Another mother at school said she wouldn’t send her child to a school where he’d develop an accent like mine. Comments on my lack of middle name. At a very posh dinner party someone asked where I’m from. When I told them another guest spent 10 minutes telling everyone how it’s the worst place he’s ever visited. Being ignored because of my accent. Basically an entire lifetime of this.

Except it is never about one thing like books. I have a house full of books, it doesn't make me MC with DHs just above nmw income, our benefit top ups, our rented house in a low income area.

People who cling to being WC in their Nice homes in Nice areas with their large salaries and lifestyle to go with it seem to cling to the "but I work hard for my living" as if that's the definition of WC. Nearly everyone works for their living, no one is suggesting the lawyers and surgeons sit on their butt's all day

Maybe they feel that working-class is their identity, however much they earn?

Not sure of the overlap between posters here and this thread:

www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4573334-ukrainian-refugee-calling-in-sick-and-having-new-boyfriend-over

Nearly lost my quinoa and quince chutney over it.