Middle class indicators 2022 part 2

[Pullandpush]

Current thread has 1000 posts so restarting.. Was asked at the end of the last thread what I would identify as & I am solidly working class due to working hard to pay our mortgage, kids in state school & having a very modest lifestyle.

Bumping 😉

@LouisCatorze @2356vw @Dahlly new thread started

@sunglassesonthetable @palygold @Snoopsnoggysnog

@Pullandpush I suppose yours and your DP/DH's job is important too? As that is (to some degree) an indicator of class. What do you spend your spare time doing? Parents and children

DH & I are both in management, uni educated & enjoy Netflix, reading, hiking & camping in our spare time... All normal mundane activities

@Pullandpush that sounds pretty MC to me tbh, even if LMC - so I would have to agree with @LouisCatorze on that one

I think class indicators are more to do with what you do with your money, rather than necessarily how much you have. Man U tickets and an all-inclusive beach holiday in Spain cost more than theatre tickets and a whiskey tasting holiday in the Highlands, but I know which are more middle class.

I don't think that signifies working class? Surely that could equally apply to many middle class people?

To me it's not middle class. I have friends who are on minimum wage who are far more waste & sustainability conscious than me, part because of the environment but also because it saves them pounds.
It grates on me that the mc are apparently more "environmentally conscious" & recycle clothes etc but my friends who are scraping to make ends meet are wearing fifth or sixth hand me downs & don't refer to themselves as "eco-warriors" as @louiscatorze describes herself. They are just living within their means like my family!

If people think that to be middle class you must have kids at private school does that mean less than 5% of the population are middle class?

I'm sure only 7% of the population go to private school and a lot of them will be UC surely?

I work at a university (non academic role) and know a few married couples who work there (also non academic roles) with the husband earning about £40k, wife on a lower salary and part-time so their overall household incomes are around £60k-70k but I would still count them as middle class.

Their education, their accents, the area they live in, the schools their children attend (high achieving state primaries followed by a grammar), their holidays, home decor, hobbies, kids extracurriculars, types of holidays taken, the food they eat, clothes they wear, music they listen to, reading material etc. Plus they seem quite awkward around stereotypical WC people 😄

@SynchOrSwim what kind of holidays, reading material and food?

What are peoples thoughts on designer items and MC people? It's a no go or they tend to have them?

I don't brazenly refer to myself as an eco-warrior (I'm no Extinction Rebellion activist Swampy) and wear it ostentatiously as a 'badge of honour'. It was just a quick way of describing my long held views on sustainability and recycling (I guess I was an early adopter?) for the benefit of this thread.

I still think that many people who have modest lifestyles can be much more MC in outlook and values than richer contemporaries.

I would say that real deal MC people would wear a mix of quality (and less so) brands, with some designer stuff thrown in but in a subtle non-ostentatious way.

If they have designer items they would never tell you voluntarily. So you won’t see them advertising the fact with logos on clothing.
They buy quality clothing that may last years so less fashion more style.
No preference for food. I use a number of different supermarkets. Waitrose, Tescos, Asda and Lidl.
Just found out Lidl stock my favourite butter/spread that Waitrose no longer stock, Aldi stock frozen Mochi, my current addiction. Supermarket snobbery is not a middle class thing. Farm shops are a favourite because if you live rurally they are often closer than a supermarket. Our local one stocks locally grown food which hasn’t been cold stored for months. It’s also cheaper.
Holidays - Cornwall, skiing in France or Austria, France ( you can drive there), usually non-package holidays.
MC London are very different to the rest of the country. The clever mc relocate so they can privately educate their children. DS goes to school with a lot of children whose parents used to live and work in London. With a massive drop in the cost of living when you move out of London school fees are much more affordable.

@Angrymum22 I've seen this about non packages holidays a few times now. DH and I book everything ourselves, flights, hotels, usually arrange transfers with the hotels etc. I don't see why that's seen as MC rather than a package holiday though? You have your operators such as Scott Dunn who do package holidays that are aimed at MC people

Sending your DC to private school is a political and economic choice. Plenty of left leaning MC professionals (with and without money) whose DC are clogging up places in the best state schools across the land.

You only have to look at somewhere like Hills Road Sixth Form College in Cambridge to see that trend playing out.

I think the package holiday thing relates to a discomfort with navigating ‘foreign’ environs amongst those who didn’t grow up traveling much. To them, a package is perhaps a financial and cultural safety net.

Personally, I don’t see the point of a package because I can always book something nicer or more interesting myself (because I am catering only to my own family’s interests instead of trying to appeal to a generic ‘family friendly’ market as a tour operator). DH and I both traveled extensively in our childhoods and early 20s, so navigating new cities without speaking the language is not intimidating. I also hate the idea of having someone else decide where I eat, where I sleep, and what I do. If I am going somewhere interesting, I want to explore, choose where and what and when I eat, and generally set my own agenda.

Also, a lot of the time we are visiting friends or family in our destination. Why would we book a package when we can stay with friends and have them show us around?

@LouisCatorze why do you think they are 'clogging up' the schools? Aren't they as entitled as anyone else in the catchment area to send their kids to the school? Also, so many people are saying that private school is out of reach for a lot of MC parents due to the high fees - so where else should they send them?!

@Blaggertyjibbet I agree, package holidays just feel impersonal, that's why I prefer to book it all myself and tailor it to what me and DH want and like.

Thinking about it now, Scott Dunn are much more personal and try to plan the holiday specifically for you as an individual rather than just a standard, off the shelf holiday. Maybe that's why it's more aimed at MC people

@sunja because it often denies those further down the socio-economic ladder (who arguably would gain more in so many ways from having access to it) to the same level of quality education. Once a state school starts becoming 'top of the league' MC parents will start helicoptering into a neighbourhood to ensure they're in catchment. This causes an increase in the cost of catchment area housing and prices out the less well off who end up having to send their DC to the much less good schools. And so the cycle of inequality continues.

@LouisCatorze I disagree with that point of view. State schools are open to everyone as long as they are in the catchment area. On the last thread, people repeatedly stated that private schools are out of reach for most of the MC as they are now exorbitantly expensive. 7% of people are privately educated.

Should MC parents therefore reduce their quality of life or have to struggle in other areas just to send their DCs to PS if it's not feasible just to keep spaces open to those who are worse off than them? That is taking it too far and expecting people to disadvantage themselves and their DCs for an ideology

I think the depressing reality is that almost everyone in the south-east 'pays' for their education in some form, even if paying takes the form of spending £100k extra to live in the right state school catchment area. I used to live in a very affluent London commuter belt town & some parents there were quite smug about going state but also incredibly calculated re catchment areas.

‘Clogging up’ the schools that by and large are funded by their parents’ taxes?

I'm not really talking about the cash-strapped MC though @sunja but the ones who have the money to send their DC to private school but don't or won't.

But as you were, as I think this is a debate for a different thread.