Consent and ‘anything goes’ sex

[Anothernameforallthis]

I work in an educational establishment, not in the U.K. but English-speaking. Without going into revealing detail, we recently had a presentation from a professor of sexual health from the U.S. Her presentation was great in many ways. The overall message was that, frankly, as long as there is consent, anything goes in a sexual encounter and nothing is shameful in any way. Butt plugs, anal, choking, fisting; whatever - she provided graphic expectations of all of them. As long as both parties are consenting adults, anything - anything - goes. She encouraged straight men to experiment with anal penetration. She provided a detailed « Sex toys and how to keep them clean » guide. The whole shebang.

Is this the way it is now ? All I could think was that a lot of this comes from porn.

her focus on consent as the green light for all this really troubled me. I’m not convinced that all young girls / women are necessarily able to consent, properly, even if they say Yes.

My sister works in a UK university, in student services. Basically when a student breaks the university code of conduct (which all students sign up to when they matriculate) she’s the one that investigates the complaints and assesses the evidence for / against the student. A lot of the complaints are of student-on-student sexual assaults, but where the female student does not want to go to the police. Often it’s because she feels like she ‘consented’ to something that she really didn’t want to. We bring girls up to be so compliant, to be kind and nice and polite. They seem to have no idea about the boundaries they c are allowed to set. That they are allowed to say no to rough or unpleasant or kinky sex.

i guess alcohol and drugs are a confounding factor here. The prof is talking about an ideal situation where both parties are sober. Assertive. Aware of and ready to enforce their personal boundaries.

i just seemed to me that we are in the worst of both worlds. Where, literally, anything goes sexually. But where we are still socialising girls to be ‘nice’ and be ‘kind’.

I don’t really understand what your asking/saying. Are you asking with if people disagree with the school having the presentation? Or if people disagree with what she said? Or if “kinky” sex should be legal?

They seem to have no idea about the boundaries they c are allowed to set. That they are allowed to say no to rough or unpleasant or kinky sex.

Ive definitely brought my girls up to say no.

I have never wanted to do any of those things especially fisting or choking and never will. Who the fuck wants to do those things?

They do need to know that it's quite ok (and common) not to be into a lot of that stuff. To realise that many people go through life happily without ever being into it. Yes it's fine to do what you want if you're both into it but those who want those things need to know that many others won't, so that they don't expect everyone they have a relationship to want the same as them.

@Fireyflies I do think it’s important to also be taught that it’s okay to enjoy these things and that porn is not only for men; that women shouldn’t feel shame for enjoying it as well (figures even showed in the younger generation 80% of men regularly watch and 45% of women) It should also be taught to boys AND girls that porn isn’t real life and that there partners won’t act like the people they see.

The professor could be correct IMO that as long as there is 'consent' then everything is ticketty-boo. But it could be argued that if the activity is risky ie choking, bondage, is consent valid?

The problem is that 'consent' is a bit of an unknown quantity when you have, say, two people engaging in an activity without any witnesses.

What is needed, for balance, IMO, is another expert (in law) explaining what 'consent' actually is.

I wholeheartedly disagree with that message, consent to sex is complex and consent isn't a blanket where 'anything goes'.

I am already teaching my 6yo dd about consent, not in a sexual context but I refuse to bring up a daughter with message that she must 'be kind' and put the comfort of others (men) above her own. This should be how all children and young people are taught IMO. there is a difference between being a good person and 'be kind' just as there is a difference between consenting to sex and consenting to choking/humiliation/pain/anal penetration.

I absolutely agree that when it's appropriate young people should be taught about the different aspects of sex, that's it's ok to experiment or have kinks, how to properly explore them safely and how to consent/gain consent. But that must be handled in a way that doesn't imply you must do whatever a partner wants ignoring your own feelings and boundaries.

Have you raised concerns with anyone about this presentation ?

@Regularmumnetter I didn't say they should shame people for wanting those things. Just that they need to be aware that it's not something necessarily to expect any new partner to enjoy.

Women should center their own pleasure in sex. They should feel confident to.say no to any sex act that they feel will not bring them pleasure. No one should 'encourage' (ie, pressure) anyone else into a sex act they want no part of. If you are considering sex with someone who essentially wants to get off despite (or because of) your discomfort, you should call a stop to it.

I agree that consent is tricky, especially if one party is being convinced or persuaded against their better judgement.

Yanbu, I know totally what you mean OP. That professor is naive and actually part of a social pressure that’s very poisonous.

As a teen I ‘consented’ to many things that I did not want to do and did not enjoy, because it felt socially unacceptable not to and I didn’t know how to escape the situation without making a fuss. Making a fuss seemed the worse option somehow when I was drunk. It was easier just to go along with it and I felt that it was uncool to object. Because of things I’d read in teen magazines written by morons like this professor implying that the cool kids are up to kinky stuff.

I don’t understand - are you saying consenting adults shouldn’t be allowed to engage in kink?

@Regularmumnetter
I do think it’s important to also be taught that it’s okay to enjoy these things and that porn is not only for men; that women shouldn’t feel shame for enjoying it as well

I think it is important that woman who use porn realise what the porn industry actually does to women and how they are contributing to/funding an industry that abuses women.

meaww.com/why-porn-stars-kill-themselves-death-suicide-dakota-s-kye-dahlia-sky-porn-industry-depression

I understand where you're coming from, op. I agree that as long as all parties are accepting that anything goes. But I also think that consent for teenagers and young adults can be tricky as they're dealing with an enormous weight of peer pressure.

@Fireyflies oh no don’t get me wrong I completely agree with your point, I just think it’s important to teach both!

I think it's much more important to teach young people that they don't have to do those things, that having 'vanilla' sex is totally okay. You don't have to try anal, choking, fisting if you don't want.

I think there has been a real normalisation of things like choking amongst younger people. Sex that involves quite painful or humiliating acts, very pornified version of sex. Actually men understanding that these acts can be painful or humiating for women is important.

The risks of porn should be talked about, as well as some of the more unsavoury ways it can be produced. If young people are going to watch porn they need to understand the implications

Of course no one should be shamed for liking these things, but women do not have to have sex they don't want. Porn isn't real life. Educsting about faining and ensuring proper consent when you are going to be having sex with someone is much more important than teaching people they can consent to fisting

Really well put.

@Carrotten

If young people are going to watch porn they need to understand the implications

^

This x 1000

I agree that if both parties are truelly consenting anything goes. But true consent is tricky especially with teenagers or young adults, especially when having anal or being choked are almost expected. I think anything goes but in older relationships there can be a real process behind gaining trust and consent that often doesn't happen in younger relationships or people with less experience

To normalise the abnormal which for most of us choking is, gives a shocking message to young people that if you don't agree to something,you are strange. It's all porn related

Consent is one thing.

Degrading sex is another.

all well and good to consent but I once had a boyfriend call me a whore and on your knees bitch etc that was degrading to me and I ended it

there is aggressive dominant sex - but does it lead to a mid balance out of the bedroom?

There is a difference surely between consenting to regular sex and consenting to kink/porn type stuff. The large majority of adults enjoy regular sex - it's a core part of our most important relationships, and it's the main way we make children. It's also a reasonable expectation of a partner that they will (eventually, when they're ready) consent to sex. You can even annul a marriage if they don't!

In contrast, probably the majority of adults are not into most of the kinky stuff - strangulation, butt plugs, etc. If you're into that you need to first think about how you meet others who are also into it, before you get as far as asking for consent. If you're a teenager who's sexually inexperienced, you need to understand the role that these things play for some people and don't for others.

On the one hand this is removing shame from sexuality. So people who previously enjoyed something that may have been considered a kink or “taboo”- let’s say anal penetration for a straight man - are being made to feel more comfortable and accepting of themselves. So that’s positive of course - an assertive, confident, aware adult can feel good about their sexual preferences. Free from shame of liking something that mainstream society has previously labelled as unsavoury or funny or not normal.

if you take the professors speech in that context, she’s got a valid point and being so open about sexuality removes shame and stigma.

BUT that’s not the reality of the world we live in and yes porn (and other media to an extent) has brought the extremes of sex and sexuality into the mainstream. You don’t even have to go as far as porn to see this is action - reality tv and social media have also normalised extreme or explicit acts. Geordie shore - regular threesomes, everyone getting their tits and Fanny’s out for the world to see, the girls performing sex acts on each other Willy nilly - No shade from me but we weren’t doing this 20 years ago. Porn was porn and you only saw it if you went looking. It wasn’t THERE in your face.

I honestly think anyone younger than about 25 has a skewed vision of what womens bodies look like and what the realms of “regular / average” sex are.

She encouraged straight men to experiment with anal penetration

What's wrong with that? Being a straight man doesn't mean you can't enjoy anal penetration, it just means you don't like men.

You see I don’t think that because as a parent you’ve tried to teach your dc to say NO then it means they will always feel like they can say NO.

The way girls are parented/educate isn’t just about what a parent says. It’s also school, their environment, other pupils, societal pressure, videos and films and of course Porn.
So as a parent you might teach them that it’s OK to say NO. But the pressure will still be there and there is no way it will mean that a girl won’t say YES because she doesn’t feel she could say NO.

Personally I would not want my kids to get that message. People are generally not allowed to consent to being murdered or for someone to cause them irreversible damage.

Now what about acts that could result in unwanted pain that is unanticipated or what happens if things go wrong (eg with choking)?

I would be warning kids of the dangers of these things and the harm that could be done to the other person (eg death, psychological and physical damage). They should be aware that not everyone is into what they are into (especially things that could be painful). They should also be checking for enthusiastic consent at different points - to make sure they are not causing any harm and be aware that no answer does NOT mean that they are ok to continue. If in doubt ALWAYS stop.