dumb questions about teaching

[CuriousPerson]

Idly speculating, after reading schools get the extra bank holiday dates because the official one falls in half term.

I've NCd because I suspect people will think I'm starting a bunfight and I'm really not, I'm just naive. I am honestly trying to work out how the hours everyone works in different jobs compare.

So if you're a teacher your offcial working hours are the days of term time plus insets or whatever is required. Is that right? And with an expectation that marking and lesson prep and all other paperwork etc is done in your own time. Is that right? I have heard and believe in practice there are very late hours like working 7am-10pm in term and/or having to work in holidays. How many real hours would you say you have to work if you're a teacher? Is it, say, half of every one of your, what, 13 holiday weeks (2-3 days a week of any holiday week?) Is it more? Less? Is every single day in term time a 7am-10pm day, honestly, or is that, maybe half the time, otherwise a more manageable 8-4?

For comparison my office job is 8-6 with 20 days leave and usually a lot of late hours too, on average one or two really late ones per week and say one weekend day in 4. Probably works out at 43 hours a week with some weeks 50 hours and some 30. With 4 weeks hol. I and my colleagues do these same hours on salaries ranging from 27-45k. This is hard work but I don't feel massively unusual for normal professional jobs.

So teaching pay - this is the naive bit - if a job advertised in teaching at 30k, that's the total right? It's not 30k then pro rata'd down for the actual term weeks? I mean if it is then that is certainly a lot more work for less pay!

I think the answer will probably be that the hours are longer than you might think in teaching (all year!) and the pay is comparable to other professional jobs but not on the high side.

But I still suspect a full time, non teaching, hard work professional office job, with people management, constant 'on your feet' type presentation work... isnt too different as a working life. And I wonder if it's the same, less, or, more hours in the year, of a similar kind of intellectual work, and can be with comparable pay. (Obviously loads of examples of much higher pay in sectors other than teaching but for the purposes of this I'm comparing similarly paid sectors.)

If teachers are working longer hours on less pay than others then crack on with the extra bank holiday. But if they're not... why do they need an extra bank hol?

Dons tin hat !

Gah sorry for typos, this is a very emotive subject for me!

I don't think it's easy! People telling me to go and see how hard it is or do work experience or retrain... I completely believe you!!

What I still don't quite believe is that it's hands down, no questions asked, MORE HOURS FOR LESS OVERALL PAY than a similarly salaried corporate job. I wasn't asking if it was harder. FWIW probably being a SAHM to 3 kids with SEND or a care home worker or a fire fighter might also be harder. Being a CEO might be harder. I dunno.

And I'm really sorry but you do work part time! Your hours are all within July to September! Kind of doesn't matter if they are classed as holidays or non working unpaid days. All comes out in the wash.

Primary school teacher here

I'm part time now as I have two little ones but when I was full time, I worked 8am-6.30pm at school. Then took work home with me most evenings and weekends. I would say I was working a 70 hour week if not more at busy times, e.g. report writing, parents evenings, moderations, Ofsted. Thankfully I met my now DH and started making babies (lol!) which got me out the single, depressed, workaholic teacher hole I'd fallen into for many years.

On a full time salary at m6, I was on £36k with approximately £2250 take home each month. I don't really know how that compares to other industries. For me, it felt like a good salary as I'd started off as an LSA on £800 a month for a 37.5 hour week.

I've recently done over time on top of my part time hours and I noticed the hourly rate is £21.70. Again, I don't how this compares to other professions.

I do love teaching but it can be really intense and all consuming. The holidays are definitely a bonus but I think that makes the work load more full on during term time. Of course all jobs will have their challenges but I think this wonderful quote sums up teaching nicely...

“Teaching seems to require the sort of skills one would need to pilot a bus full of live chickens backwards, with no brakes, down a rocky road through the Andes while providing colorful and informative commentary on the scenery.” — Franklin Habit

Also, I'm 35 and there's no way I would want to teach 30+ classes of primary school children until I'm 67! The energy and stamina needed for teaching can be underestimated.

And I'm really sorry but you do work part time!

Ahhhh, and you say you’re not teacher bashing!

However where I started this was thinking why does someone who works essentially part time and is on holiday already get the extra bank hol. Maybe every part time job should have it pro rated but I've worked jobs where I didn't work Mondays and just used to ignore them as i was off anyway.

One minute you suggest it's not a goady post. Not]w your claiming a teaching job is a part time jib. Hmmm. I'm not convinced by your reasoning for beginning this thread now.

Just another teacher bashing post them after all. I'm out.

But most teachers will be working in August too - fact! I've had to move classrooms every year in the summer holidays since I've been in the job and it really is comparable with moving house!
August jobs include -
Moving classrooms with furniture
Clearing all the crap from the year just gone, plus clearing the crap from the new classroom you inherit.
Wall displays
Labelling new books
Sorting out new class information, plus SEN needs
Sorting stationery
Seating plans
Summmer holiday book swap
Plus many other things...

Obviously there are no set hours for working in August and it's flexible how and when but it really is an unfair misconception that teachers don't work in the holidays. We definitely do!

I started in an office job (15 years) before moving into teaching, they are different but both have their good and bad points. Personally I found my old job dull and uninspiring and much prefer teaching.
I don’t know how much I work, I like what I do so I am quite happy looking at things and planning late at night.
I’m don’t understand why you think school staff shouldn’t have the extra bank holiday that the whole county is getting this year though, you haven’t really explained that.

We get paid for the 195 days that we are contracted to work but split over 12 monthly payments.

If we were to take a day unpaid during term time it is not calculated as 1/360 of our salary but closer to 1/195 which is quite a significant amount.

You sound like a teacher basher.
and you need to see an employment lawyer if you’re only getting 4 weeks holiday. That’s below the statutory minimum. Oh by the way teachers pay only includes pay for the statutory minimum holidays.

I think you should sign up to train as a teacher. You would love the part time hours and brilliant holidays. Go for it.

yours sincerely, a teacher about to be an ex-teacher who couldn’t give a toss about ‘giving up the holidays’

You might have ‘ignored’ BH when part time but it would have been factored into your AL, so you still got the hours (unless you worked somewhere dodgy). You did well out of it by not working Mondays actually.

I stopped taking you seriously OP when you suggested teachers were part time.

And there I was, taking time to answer you thoughtfully, in good faith. And then you out yourself.

FFS.

No we don't. We get paid for working 1265 hours per year. That's the contract.

No. The contract is 1265 hours per year of directed time i.e time in which the teacher has to carry out duties specified by the employer/headteacher.

But the STPCD is very clear that in addition to the 1265 hours ´a teacher must work such reasonable additional hours as may be necessary to enable the effective discharge of the teacher’s professional duties, including in particular planning and preparing courses and lessons; and assessing, monitoring, recording and reporting on the learning needs, progress and achievements of assigned pupils.´

Obviously people will have different interpretations of what is reasonable !

But just for the record, the fact that schools are not open to children for the whole of August, does not make teachers part time employees.

Argh! I'm not bashing!!! Teachers work very hard and I've said this in every single post I have made.

The bank holiday thing is a red herring, I understand everyone should get statutory bank holidays. I have thanked people who've kindly explained it and shed light on it.

But you can't have it both ways. Either you're "unpaid for holidays" which means the job is not a full time job but contracted to work directed hours for only part of the year ... which is part time right?? part of the time! Or your salary pays for full time hours which you're saying you don't do because you have some uncontracted days? Maybe it's just that I don't understand the definitions of those terms but I'm not saying part time is insulting. I've worked part time to manage heavy workloads. And most serious jobs assume you do extra work outside specifically contracted days to get the job done. Many professional roles just used to make you waive the European working time directive when you signed up for example.

I can understand why you are all so touchy and feel that nobody understands how hard you work. I do get it. I do. But there is nothing inherently insulting in saying you are not paid for the whole year or sympathising that you are working stupidly hard hours for 39 weeks and getting lighter hours in 13 weeks.

Oh OP. You're coming over all "I'm not goady but..." here.

You've been called out as being insulting and disrespectful. You've been corrected by many on here at great length and yet you continue to bash out your goady and insulting lines. Just because you don't think what you're saying is offensive doesn't make it non-offensive.

Imagine if you will that it was a conversation about eg race. You might be saying "but I don't believe it's racist or offensive" and yet many others who did in fact find it racist/offensive or whatever could be telling you otherwise. Would you stop then or would you keep banging on?

Do you really think you have a right to continue trying to tell people that their experiences and feelings are wrong, just because you think otherwise?

Do you generally find it quite difficult to accept other peoples views if they differ to your own or if you're shown to be wrong?

Stop feeding it. Really

I can understand why you are all so touchy

There you go. Dismissive and rude.

You’re either incredibly rude or incredibly stupid if you don’t get it.

Does it matter ? Why does it matter to you?

Initially you were bothered about the bank holiday. Now the bank holiday is a red herring. I think you just want to be rude about teachers.

As it is, I bloody love my teaching job. I think I get paid alright and I like the holidays. We have a massive teacher shortage in this country and anyone who wants to join us, should train.

Many professional roles just used to make you waive the European working time directive when you signed up for example.

Only if they're breaching employment law. The only legal exemptions are the emergency services and the armed forces.

Re-reading your last post perhaps it’s that you don’t seem to understand the difference between contracted and directed hours. Let’s give you a chance here.

Almost all other jobs (can’t think of another like teaching but happy to be corrected) have a set number of contracted hours and arrangements for overtime or time in lieu if you work over this.

teacher contracts are archaic. They have a set number of directed hours when you can be told where to work (ie in school). They then have a clause that says a teacher must also work unspecified additional hours. So set directed hours (and set number of days), but unspecified/unlimited contracted hours.

school leadership scale employees have no set directed hours. Only unspecified, unlimited contracted hours.

teacher contracts are unlike normal employee contracts. Note also that there is no accrued holiday pay while on maternity leave, for example. Again, I can’t think of any other job where this isn’t a right. There are no set holiday entitlements in teacher contracts. Therefore it is deemed it must be the statutory minimum seeing as there is nothing else in there about it.

teacher contracts need a good overhaul to bring them in-line with other employee contracts. Set working hours, defined holiday pay etc. that would be excellent.

Maybe every part time job should have it pro rated but I've worked jobs where I didn't work Mondays and just used to ignore them as i was off anyway

Yes they should. By law someone who actually works part time should not be treated less favourably than someone who works full time. Ergo if their non working day falls on a bank holiday they should relieve the pro-rata hours back to use when they want. Just because you've worked shitty corporate jobs where people don't know their legal rights and roll over doesn't mean it should be or is the case more widely.

I work 2.5 days, and it equates to roughly 26 hours in the school building. I then do some in the evenings, and occasionally during the week on my non working days when DD2 naps, and DD1 watches TV. DD1 starts school in Sept, so I'll be able to use DD2's nap time to catch up (I don't like sticking DD1 in front of the TV for too long just so I can get work done!). I worked FT for 9 years before kids, and although I found it hard going back to work after having my second DD, I'm used to it now, and find working PT much better than FT, even with two young kids to look after (we have no family nearby, so both kids are always with me!).

It's just such a shame teachers are so disrespected by the media (and a lot of the general public) in this country. DH has a friend who is a teacher in Finland, and the respect for teachers there seems much higher than here. I have very rarely seen a positive thread about teachers on MN, that's for sure!