dumb questions about teaching

[CuriousPerson]

Idly speculating, after reading schools get the extra bank holiday dates because the official one falls in half term.

I've NCd because I suspect people will think I'm starting a bunfight and I'm really not, I'm just naive. I am honestly trying to work out how the hours everyone works in different jobs compare.

So if you're a teacher your offcial working hours are the days of term time plus insets or whatever is required. Is that right? And with an expectation that marking and lesson prep and all other paperwork etc is done in your own time. Is that right? I have heard and believe in practice there are very late hours like working 7am-10pm in term and/or having to work in holidays. How many real hours would you say you have to work if you're a teacher? Is it, say, half of every one of your, what, 13 holiday weeks (2-3 days a week of any holiday week?) Is it more? Less? Is every single day in term time a 7am-10pm day, honestly, or is that, maybe half the time, otherwise a more manageable 8-4?

For comparison my office job is 8-6 with 20 days leave and usually a lot of late hours too, on average one or two really late ones per week and say one weekend day in 4. Probably works out at 43 hours a week with some weeks 50 hours and some 30. With 4 weeks hol. I and my colleagues do these same hours on salaries ranging from 27-45k. This is hard work but I don't feel massively unusual for normal professional jobs.

So teaching pay - this is the naive bit - if a job advertised in teaching at 30k, that's the total right? It's not 30k then pro rata'd down for the actual term weeks? I mean if it is then that is certainly a lot more work for less pay!

I think the answer will probably be that the hours are longer than you might think in teaching (all year!) and the pay is comparable to other professional jobs but not on the high side.

But I still suspect a full time, non teaching, hard work professional office job, with people management, constant 'on your feet' type presentation work... isnt too different as a working life. And I wonder if it's the same, less, or, more hours in the year, of a similar kind of intellectual work, and can be with comparable pay. (Obviously loads of examples of much higher pay in sectors other than teaching but for the purposes of this I'm comparing similarly paid sectors.)

If teachers are working longer hours on less pay than others then crack on with the extra bank holiday. But if they're not... why do they need an extra bank hol?

Dons tin hat !

Well, it sounds like you're already working in a training capacity then? So then it's "just" the behaviour management that would probably be different.

See if you can find a school that will offer you a couple of days work experience. By and large I love it as a job, but I work in a private school. And still the difficult days are indescribably exhausting and demoralising. Make sure that you're allowed to shadow an ECT as well as more experienced teachers.

I used to work three days a week as a teacher. I worked more then than I do now, in a professional office job, even taking the holidays into account. I can switch off from work at the end of the day now - before, that wasn't an option and it was truly exhausting. I'm aware that may have been the particular culture at my school though.

Like I said in my original post, teachers get PPA time to plan (one day a week or half a day a week depending on experience).

Plus, I mark/plan/print during my working hours. Before the kids are in (20 mins), after the kids are in (20mins), assembly time (15 mins), reading time (15 mins), and break time (20 mins) = 1.5 hour a day. Add that to my PPA time = 13.5 hours a week non-contact time (which is ample!).

Yes, it’s a normal state school with a large class with some tricky behavioural needs and lots of SEN. I teach in a three form entry school, so there are two other teachers to share the planning which is hugely beneficial.

WE DON'T GET PAID FOR OUR HOLIDAYS.

It's not difficult. Every other job has paid holiday.

I'm a retired teacher. When I was in my last job, in a private school, I regularly arrived at school by 8.15 and worked until 10 every single evening, and sometimes even later when we had parents' evenings.

To be honest that’s not all that uncommon in many jobs especially professional jobs. Outside London I would say teachers are paid pretty well for what they do especially when you take into account the holidays and pension.

@DogsAndGin blimey I'm coming to your school!

Don't you have staff meetings? How can you finish at 340? Everyone in our school has ab expectation to run a club too and we do duties, are you exempt from that?

Do you never have to phone a parent or have meetings with colleagues after work? How have you managed to get a TA, they are like gold dust now. We have TAs only in early years or for specific-1:1s.

If your school is truly real then we need more like it so the profession stops going down the pan with so many teachers leaving!!

Are you still an ECT? You may find it a shock when you only have 2 hours planning and marking. How do you manage to mark 30 English books?

If you don’t get paid for your holidays then your salary is massive. of course that’s not actually true- you do get an annual salary and holidays which are essentially paid.

@DogsAndGin sorry but just read your other post.

So during reading you don't hear readers? You don't ever go into assembly? We all have to go in! A different world!!!

Not worth engaging unless you’re working massively over your contracted hours?! That’s a bit rude. I am a real teacher - my experience is valid and offers something to this discussion.

I am not alone in my school. When I pull up in the car park at my contracted start time, many other teachers are too. And when I leave, lots of others leave with me. I don’t really understand what I’m doing to annoy you so much - I have 13.5 hours of non-contact time a week (break, assembly, PPA - where I am at work but not with the kids), it’s ample to get everything done.

@Villagewaspbyke yes we do get paid but if we had less holidays we'd get paid more!!

Note that obviously it’s illegal to not give at least the minimum paid holidays (about 26 days a year). So yeah, you do get paid for your holidays

I left teaching after 30 years and now do a zero hours contract admin role for £10 an hour.

I worked out than in terms of the amount of time I spent working in the evenings and the holidays I was actually on £12 an hour by the time I left teaching. I was a head of faculty so top of main scale plus extra management money.

I am much less stressed and far happier in the role I now do.

I don't begrudge teachers the extra bank holiday. In many schools it is a job I would not wish on my own worst enemy.

I'm very happy for you but what about the schools where teachers are expected to do playground duties and stay for assembly and how are you marking in reading time? Shouldn't you be...reading with groups etc? I know we are. We are also expected to run maths and English clubs before and or after school and do one extra curricula club a week. So all my marking was in my own time (add CPD to this) and I rarely left school before 7.

12 hours a day × 5 + 4 hours (min) on a weekend = £12.50 ph + £21,000 uni debts tobecome a teacher 🥵

@DogsAndGin I think you are very unusual having 13.5 hours non contact. Even if you don't go into assembly you walk them there and back? That's at least 5 mins gone. Break time is only 15 mins in my school and I'm on duty every day.

As I've said if your school exists don't ever leave!!

My ex was a teacher and worked much shorter hours than any other professional I know. Equally the teacher friends I have don’t work excessive hours at all. There are a group of mn who insist teaching is uniquely difficult but irl that’s not my experience.

13.5 hrs non contact per week?
Is that a typo? I have 2 hours....(I work 4 days)

I've left teaching now. I used to work roughly 7.30 - 5 in school (with an hour commute each way) and then once I got home I'd do between another 1.5 - 3 hours most nights, sometimes took a break and had a night off. Most lunch and break times were taken up with chasing pupils, supervising detentions, photocopying etc. I'd have around 15 - 20 minutes in the day to grab a bite to eat and go to the loo. I'd do maybe around 2-3 hours per weekend day, varying depending on the time of year. Holidays: didn't have to do much in the summer holidays, except at the beginning and end and on exam results days. At the beginning of the holidays it would take maybe 2-3 full days to sort out all the paperwork, classroom displays etc. At the end of the holidays, the last 7 - 10 days would be lesson prepping. Proper holiday for most of August, except for GCSE and A Level results day, and possibly helping to chase up uni offers for a couple of days after A Level results. Shorter holidays I didn't get much of a break, there would be some days off but also lesson planning and marking to be done. If it were a week's half term, I'd probably work 2-3 full days of it.

As it should be! Do you even understand what teachers actually do? The train, qualifications and cpd we have to have. If you begrudge a basic salary for teachers being £40k you need to give your head w wobble.

No, we aren’t expected to run a club.
Yes - we have one staff meeting a week after school, so on that day I leave at 5pm.
Yes I am an ECT.
Yes my school is truly real, and I absolutely agree that teachers need to look after themselves, not accept being bullied, remind SLT of their working hours, get unions involved when needed, and not burn out and leave the profession.

But look at the replies I have got - shaming me for doing what they would love to be able to do, and some people are even saying my contribution to this discussion is irrelevant and I shouldn’t be listened to. It’s no wonder teachers are feeling pressured to work too many hours, being bullied by their colleagues, and suffering from stress and leaving.

HOD, core subject, secondary, heavy marking load.

On average I will start work, from home, at 6.30am. Leave home at 7, at work by 7 30. Teach, deal with the day to day etc. Leave school around 5.30-6. On a Friday might leave early at 4.30

Once at home, do at least an hour's work on HOD stuff (curriculum, staffing etc) and then mark.

One full day per weekend marking.

During holidays, this year I have spent at least 50% working. So I suppose, all in all a 50-60 hour working week during term time, and then maybe 30 hours for 50% of holidays?

Not including extra directed time such as parents' evenings, or trips etc.

If you're employed under STPCD, they can't decide that.

I'd love to see your marking policy.

We have to mark 3 × English, maths, reading skills and theme weekly. With at least one being an full quality mark and a full quality mark and assessment for English, maths and reading skills every 3 weeks and theme every 6 weeks.

Plus parents, plus clubs, plus meetings, plus photocopying, prep, SEN and ehcp plans...wall displays sigh

@Fedupsotired sorry missed some questions - yes I sometimes have to call parents (less than once a week), but that is usually a 5 mins call so I can easily do that in the 25 mins after the kids leave, or catch the parents at the gates.

Everyone in my school has a part time TA. I haven’t been given a special privilege by having one - in fact, I have one on very short hours, and I have the largest class in the school.

@ElCoh our marking policies sound very similar.