dumb questions about teaching

[CuriousPerson]

Idly speculating, after reading schools get the extra bank holiday dates because the official one falls in half term.

I've NCd because I suspect people will think I'm starting a bunfight and I'm really not, I'm just naive. I am honestly trying to work out how the hours everyone works in different jobs compare.

So if you're a teacher your offcial working hours are the days of term time plus insets or whatever is required. Is that right? And with an expectation that marking and lesson prep and all other paperwork etc is done in your own time. Is that right? I have heard and believe in practice there are very late hours like working 7am-10pm in term and/or having to work in holidays. How many real hours would you say you have to work if you're a teacher? Is it, say, half of every one of your, what, 13 holiday weeks (2-3 days a week of any holiday week?) Is it more? Less? Is every single day in term time a 7am-10pm day, honestly, or is that, maybe half the time, otherwise a more manageable 8-4?

For comparison my office job is 8-6 with 20 days leave and usually a lot of late hours too, on average one or two really late ones per week and say one weekend day in 4. Probably works out at 43 hours a week with some weeks 50 hours and some 30. With 4 weeks hol. I and my colleagues do these same hours on salaries ranging from 27-45k. This is hard work but I don't feel massively unusual for normal professional jobs.

So teaching pay - this is the naive bit - if a job advertised in teaching at 30k, that's the total right? It's not 30k then pro rata'd down for the actual term weeks? I mean if it is then that is certainly a lot more work for less pay!

I think the answer will probably be that the hours are longer than you might think in teaching (all year!) and the pay is comparable to other professional jobs but not on the high side.

But I still suspect a full time, non teaching, hard work professional office job, with people management, constant 'on your feet' type presentation work... isnt too different as a working life. And I wonder if it's the same, less, or, more hours in the year, of a similar kind of intellectual work, and can be with comparable pay. (Obviously loads of examples of much higher pay in sectors other than teaching but for the purposes of this I'm comparing similarly paid sectors.)

If teachers are working longer hours on less pay than others then crack on with the extra bank holiday. But if they're not... why do they need an extra bank hol?

Dons tin hat !

I'm in that group too and I'm leaving in July. There are approx 500k teachers in the UK and the group has 70k (almost all UK) members - not a great statistic for an 'amazing' career.

Sounds manageable in 13 hours. Not sure how you're going to manage it in 2 hours (group PPA). but whatever.

A couple of questions - apologies if you've already answered these.

1. State or independent school?
2. Primary or secondary?
3. 13.5 hours of non contact a week - have I misread? Is it a typo? Ive never come across that in nearly 40 years of teaching.
4. Please PM me school details, I'm agog.

My ECTs get nowhere near 13 hours a week!

I'm sick and tired of the negativity I see towards teachers. We were vilified during the pandemic, after it, before it... We'reazy, we're always on holiday, we only work 9-3 blah blah.

Whatever.

I lie awake in the night worrying about students, how I'm going to help them achieve, safeguarding them at 9pm on a Saturday evening, trying to remember if I completed the duplicates of futile paperwork that only serve to please the micro-managing leadership teams...

I'd work in industry, like my husband who never comes home stressed, works at home etc, but teaching is a vocation. Sometimes it would just be bloody nice if someone said 'thanks for all you do. Enjoy the extra bank holiday that the rest of the country are getting.'

*we're lazy

Right. Can't work out if it's the shitty pay or the non existent respect and lack of trust that made me leave.

Gee

@Villagewaspbyke thank you for adding that. I’m not alone!

I probably work a similar number of hours as @Ca55andraMortmain but that's because I have a smallish class this year and have been teaching in my school and year group for a long time. An early career teacher would do much longer hours.
However, I think it's also worth considering the intensity as well as the hours/pay. From the minute I get in to the minute I leave the job is all-consuming, and that is more exhausting than the hours.

It’s an independent school, so I think they can do what they want.

No we don't. We get paid for working 1265 hours per year. That's the contract.

@ElCoh you're determined to see me stressed and overworked. Can’t you be happy that new teachers are managing really well? Do you want teachers to be stressed? Is it giving you some kind of pride?

I mean, I LITERALLY said I'm happy for you in my previous comment.

But apparently teachers in your magic school don't need to be able to read so 🤷

Hi @Maireas

couple of questions - apologies if you've already answered these.

State or independent school? state
Primary or secondary? ks2 primary
13.5 hours of non contact a week - have I misread? Is it a typo? Ive never come across that in nearly 40 years of teaching yes 13.5 including before and after school, break time, assembly, ppa
Please PM me school details, I'm agog no

But if they're not... why do they need an extra bank hol?

Totally irrelevant as to how many hours they are or aren't doing out fo contracted hours.

I refuse to get into the whole 'but you get all those holidays and only work 9-3 arguments yet again - every single half term and/or holiday they appear without fail.O

All workers are entitled to bank holidays, even if not taken on the 'correct' day. The other bank holidays often appear in school holidays and are built into the teacher's contacts and holiday pay part of their salary.

The extra bank holiday is no different. School staff are entitled to that day - school staff also include lots of other staff, not just teachers, who are also entitled to that day too. Schools have been asked to take the day in a day which best suits their school year. Some have already taken in, some are attaching it to this half term, some will take it a bit later in the academic year.

As it happens I'll probably do some school work on the Monday after half term, as I'm away over half term.

I retired from teaching last year, but I pretty much did all my work at school (Head of Science, secondary).

I'd get in a hour early, but leave as soon as I was allowed to at the end of the day, so 7am till 4pm. When I got home, I maybe spent 20 minutes pottering about with emails and that was it.

You’re just being rude and disrespectful. Of course I can read - I have straight As and a first class degree.

Your messages are not coming across that you are happy or supportive of teachers who have found a good work life balance. I really hope more teachers do manage to get a better balance, and I think SLT in lots of schools sound like they are the problem. It’s a real shame that so many teachers are stressed and unhappy in a job which can be so wonderful and enjoyable.

Do ye aye? no holiday, eh?

You should sue them for the paid holidays you have a legal right to then. On you go and let us know how you get on.

@DogsAndGin thank you for answering.
I too work before and after school, but didn't count that as my non contact time.
I have to be present in assemblies.
I have to do 2 break and one after school duty per week.
Full time teachers get 3 hours non contact per week.
I am very jealous of your contract. How your SLT manage the budget is extraordinary, but good luck to you.

Obviously loads of examples of much higher pay in sectors other than teaching but for the purposes of this I'm comparing similarly paid sectors.

Comparisons should also include similar qualifications need to be able to do that job too, not just the level of pay. So one which requires a degree and a post grad qualification as a minimum.

Teaching is crap these days, like other jobs I don't think unless you've done it you can imagine what it's like- it also varies between schools and what you teach.

I left a few years back and haven't regretted it one iota, many many teachers are leaving and it will very soon be a huge problem- but as its such great pay and so easy I'm sure plenty of people will be entering training and problem solved!

The actual teaching part I loved, the increasing expectations with decreasing budgets is just not a happy balance. If there are schools where teachers don't have to do any work outside of school hours then great, I'd say that's a very very small minority and although there is some competitive martyrdom going on; the vast majority of teachers don't want to a load of work outside of school but don't have time during the school day to do it.

Agreed- Utterly rude and disrespectful @DogsAndGin

some people struggle in all jobs, that’s just life. My profession has an enormous attrition rate and few last more than a few years. most of the teachers I know have been in it their whole career. That’s not necessarily saying it’s easy but not uniquely hard like a few on mn pretend either.

Are you being purposefully obtuse?