dumb questions about teaching

[CuriousPerson]

Idly speculating, after reading schools get the extra bank holiday dates because the official one falls in half term.

I've NCd because I suspect people will think I'm starting a bunfight and I'm really not, I'm just naive. I am honestly trying to work out how the hours everyone works in different jobs compare.

So if you're a teacher your offcial working hours are the days of term time plus insets or whatever is required. Is that right? And with an expectation that marking and lesson prep and all other paperwork etc is done in your own time. Is that right? I have heard and believe in practice there are very late hours like working 7am-10pm in term and/or having to work in holidays. How many real hours would you say you have to work if you're a teacher? Is it, say, half of every one of your, what, 13 holiday weeks (2-3 days a week of any holiday week?) Is it more? Less? Is every single day in term time a 7am-10pm day, honestly, or is that, maybe half the time, otherwise a more manageable 8-4?

For comparison my office job is 8-6 with 20 days leave and usually a lot of late hours too, on average one or two really late ones per week and say one weekend day in 4. Probably works out at 43 hours a week with some weeks 50 hours and some 30. With 4 weeks hol. I and my colleagues do these same hours on salaries ranging from 27-45k. This is hard work but I don't feel massively unusual for normal professional jobs.

So teaching pay - this is the naive bit - if a job advertised in teaching at 30k, that's the total right? It's not 30k then pro rata'd down for the actual term weeks? I mean if it is then that is certainly a lot more work for less pay!

I think the answer will probably be that the hours are longer than you might think in teaching (all year!) and the pay is comparable to other professional jobs but not on the high side.

But I still suspect a full time, non teaching, hard work professional office job, with people management, constant 'on your feet' type presentation work... isnt too different as a working life. And I wonder if it's the same, less, or, more hours in the year, of a similar kind of intellectual work, and can be with comparable pay. (Obviously loads of examples of much higher pay in sectors other than teaching but for the purposes of this I'm comparing similarly paid sectors.)

If teachers are working longer hours on less pay than others then crack on with the extra bank holiday. But if they're not... why do they need an extra bank hol?

Dons tin hat !

To celebrate the Queen’s Jubilee everyone will get an additional paid day off this year.

Not you teachers!

It’s nothing to do with how many hours anyone works, it’s to do with the nation being given an extra paid holiday and that applies to everyone, including teachers.

Schools have been allowed to decide where to put that extra day, a lot of schools have already had it.

DS is a teacher.
He works easily 60+ hours a week.
This includes many days when he has no lunch break as he does extra sessions at lunch. Monday to Thursday he has after school sessions. Many parents evenings / open evenings so on those days he is in school 12 hours.
He then works in an evening.
He takes Friday evening and all day Saturday off and works on Sunday. Although during GCSE / A levels he is working Saturday mornings as well.
He's on his knees with exhaustion right now. Half terms he crashes but works at least two days marking / planning.
Summer holidays he will take four weeks and work two weeks.
He earns £30K. He absolutely loves his job but I can't see how that level of work is sustainable.

But I still suspect a full time, non teaching, hard work professional office job, with people management, constant 'on your feet' type presentation work... isnt too different as a working life.

I'd say that the main difference is that you don't have to manage the behaviour of 30 kids, keeping them on task, never having a down minute, being 'on show' and judged every minute (not just when you're doing a presentation) and having to factor in lots of different levels of understanding and personalities in everything you say and do. Some of those kids will be working to undermine you at all times, some will have special needs or anger issues. And ask the time you're fighting to keep control, as well as do your actual job, to teach them something. That's what makes teaching exhausting (and I haven't even got to the parents yet!)

Most of my friends are in other professional jobs, so I'm not one of those teachers who think everyone else had it easy. I know that they have pressures that I don't. But I still don't think that many people understand just how intense teaching is. There is nowhere to hide when your in control of the class.
Feeling ill? Really stressful situation at home? You can't shut your office door/choose to do a piece of work that's not so difficult/stay quiet in front of your computer. It's just so full on. You've still got to prevent Max from launching himself from his desk to strangle Ben who just whispered to him that his mum's a whore, while not letting the rest of the lesson fall apart.

Sorry about the typos in the above, by the way. I can actually spell. My new phone keyboard can't, apparently!

The school teachers’ pay and conditions document is linked below. Independent schools and academies are exempt, but for maintained schools it is a statutory document.

I once did some research into English teachers’ real working hours a few years ago (not published - just for a course) - from my sample, it wasn’t so far off the 195 days specified. School culture is influential in terms of your perception of what might be a reasonable workload.

That said, as soon as I had children I opted out of leadership and am now as part-time as I am allowed to be! It took a lot of me being ‘in the zone’ to stay on top of my job.

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1022624/School_teachers__pay_and_conditions_document_2021_and_guidance_on_school_teachers__pay_and_conditions.pdf

A lot of questions there so will just answer a few.

Teachers get a 2-3 lessons a week of non contact time. This is lessons where they don't have to teach. These hours are meant for planning/marking etc, but in reality it's nowhere near enough time to do much at all. Example I taught 12 groups this year, each having assessments that need marking 1-2 times a half term. Each set can take a few hours each assessment to mark. That's even without usual book /homework marking. So before school/after school hours are needed to even do basics!

Second thing to address. Teachers don't get paid for summer holiday. Our wage is a yearly wage that is spread over 12 months. The holiday days that are paid for are within the school year. Made up of Xmas, Easter, half terms. Bank hols are within those also. So our holiday are set for those dates and cannot book days any other time. So by there being an extra bank hol or whatever, means we are owed an extra day. Or something like that!

I went from a career in broadcast production - long, often unsociable hours, constantly having to be mentally alert and ‘on show’, big responsibility - to teaching. They’re very similar!

The big difference with teaching is that you are working with children, so have an extra layer not just of responsibility but if ‘acting’. You have to be a role model and mindful of your manner and language and what you say at all times.

I’m on SLT now and the hours are fairly hardcore. Start at 7am, rarely finish before 6pm, take work home a couple of evenings a week and work most weekends for half a day. It’s without a doubt the most consuming job I’ve ever done.

OP

Lots of things depend on the school, the teacher and the subject. SO you might think PE teachers don't have as much prep as say an English teacher, but the PE teacher might spend every Saturday morning and one evening coaching a sports team or two.

Oh do you get a lunch break? Teachers are usually on a rota for play ground or hall duties. They may get a free school lunch if they are lucky.

One school I was at the drama teacher organised trips to the West End (from Birmingham) and when I left was planning a week in New York.

Even if the trip sets off at lunchtime that teacher is 'on' for the coach trip to London, while the pupils are in the theatre, on the coach afterwards, they may not be back from a show until quite late in the evening.

Those skiing trips, year 7 trips, days at an amusement park are all there because teachers give up their free time. No one forces teachers to do these trips but it might be the only chance a child gets for a holiday,

Then there are the occasional cases where a student discloses something and the school can't let the child go home, so what do you think happens if you can't get a social worker to the school until 8pm?

I had a funny turn and nearly fainted in the classroom. You can never leave a class unattended so I had to ask the teacher next door to stand in the corridor between the two classrooms (large windows giving onto the corridor) whilst I went and lay down on the stockroom floor. When a student was horrendously sick all over me and i had to send a child to run for assistance. a school admin person came and took the child away but no-one covered for me so I could wash my hands. Some difficult students will call you and others all kinds of names but ultimately they are children and we have to be the adults.
There is another thread running at the moment started by a woman whose child has punched a teacher in the face. Lots of advice for her obviously about her child's rights but no concern for a punched teacher.
It's a hard job.

I used to teach early years. I'd arrive at work at 7:30 and start working at 7:45 or whatever. Probably 30 mins total break throughout the school day (20 mins lunch plus maybe ten mins at break or after the kids' home tjme or whatever). I'd usually leave school by 5 and do an hour or 2 of work from home. I'd usually finish work by 8pm, it would be unusual for me to work as late as 10pm but not unheard of if a busy time e.g an observation coming up.

If anyone thinks the pay and hours in teaching are really favourable in comparison to their own job, they are obviously very welcome to come and join us!

I’m lucky enough to work in a lovely primary school with supportive and nurturing SLT. I start work at 7.45 and finish at 5 on average (some days I’ll work til 5.30/6, but always leave by 4.30 on a Friday). I do about 2-3 hours work on a Sunday but none in the evenings. On average I do about one days work in every holiday, except the summer when I’ll probably do at least a week or 2. It’s a great balance and I feel very lucky compared to lots of other teachers.

it’s worth noting that I teach reception so don’t have any marking to do - lots of my colleagues in other year groups stay until 6.30/7 and then take work home as well.

Exactly this.
It's not so much the hours or pay, but more how full-on the actual day is. You never get a moment's peace through the day, so even if I just did half a day, I'm mentally exhausted afterwards. Not to mention the amount of headspace it takes up thinking about it outside your work hours.

It's not a job where you get home and that's it until the next day. You have to plan 5-6 presentations to do for the next day. It's relentless.

We are contracted for 1265 hours a year.

Honestly the work load in England is horrific. I was working most nights until 10-11 o'clock
I no longer teach I'm England.

I don't bring any work home now obviously there is the parents eveming obligations etc

DH is a middle leader in an inner city secondary. He works stupid hours and I wish he could leave so we had more family time. He leaves at 6:30am and is back 5:30-6pm. He usually works for an hour or so after tea then probably 4 hours on a Sunday. He struggles to enjoy himself at the weekend if we're out as a family because he's conscious of all the work he has to do. It's handy he's around in the school holidays to have the kids but then I'm at work!

He has around 20 hour long lessons a week. Imagine if in your corporate job you had to deliver 20 hour long presentations (all different), plan them, design PowerPoints and handouts, differentiate the presentation for different access requirements then go through and add comments to all the written exercises your attendees did during the presentation. That's without all the other crap he has to do- data, staff training, revision sessions etc etc. It's nuts, I reckon he'll burn out soon.

This. It’s only because of the Jubilee. The majority of Bank Holidays fall in school holiday time and teachers don’t get them ‘back’ usually.

I used to get there at 7:30 and worked through my morning and lunch breaks (I preferred to minimise the amount of work I took home) so apart from making a coffee and going to the loo, I worked straight through from 7:30 until an average of 4:30. So a 45 hour week on site. I tried to keep evening work to a minimum, and as I didn't have a lot of marking in my role, I'd rarely do more than an hour at home l each evening.
Sunday afternoon/evening was my weekend work time, but how many hours would vary.

Quoting myself because I need to add that my DD, who works in a different phase and specialism couldn't understand how I could get away with only doing an hour in the evening. As I said, my specialism didn't involve much marking (though there were other kinds of assessment). She and her partner work pretty much all evening most days, and most of one weekend day. And at least a week of the two week holidays and two in the summer. I really worry about them sometimes.

The teachers I know work 12 hour days. The amount that is demanded of them is insane.

I’ve left teaching now but in my first year I calculated I divided my salary by my actual hours worked and it was less than minimum wage.

In England. DH is from Canada and says he can't believe the money and conditions for English teachers.

Haha. I thought you were actually asking about teaching.

But no. You're pissy we are getting a national Bank holiday.

Looking at hours only - the hours are insane. My friend is a primary teacher and she’s at school from 7.30 to 3.30 - which is already a full 8hr day - sometimes with no lunch break if she’s on yard duty or has a parent meeting. Then she’s stuck there for another couple of hours if she runs a club that evening or has a staff meeting. She comes home for tea then has to do another 2-3 hours in the evening marking the work from that day and getting ready for the following day. Plus she works Sunday preparing for the following week. I only ever see her on Saturday because that’s her only time off. Yes she gets good holidays but she needs them because she literally collapses with exhaustion. As pp said, it works out at about a tenner an hour.

So I've been in and out of teaching, as am fortunate enough to have two possible careers.

I would say that the hours of teaching are pretty similar to most jobs. They're seriously not worse. They do binge, yes, so you can get loads at some times of the year. There's also a much steeper learning curve than in some jobs, so in the first couple of years you can expect to be working weekends.

BUT, what's different is the exhaustion. I find it really funny when people in other jobs talk about the stress of doing presentations- because there's basically five hours of that a day in teaching. But the worst is the emotional involvement with students- you are invested in them. It's also the million small conversations you can have a day, sometimes simultaneously. That's so much more than you'd have in any other job.

But I don't need to work most of the holidays now. I totally love having at least ten weeks off a year (because, yes, I do have three weeks or so of extra work).

Hi OP

So if you're a teacher your offcial working hours are the days of term time plus insets or whatever is required. Is that right? correct

And with an expectation that marking and lesson prep and all other paperwork etc is done in your own time. Is that right? absolutely not! I don’t work for free in my own free time. You get one day off from teaching each week for your first two years of teaching to do marking and prep, and half a day a week off teaching after those initial two years

How many real hours would you say you have to work if you're a teacher? I work 8:20 - 3:40 with an hour lunch. So 6 hours and 20 minutes a day

Is it, say, half of every one of your, what, 13 holiday weeks (2-3 days a week of any holiday week?) Is it more? Less? I don’t work at all during the holidays. We don’t accrue any holiday pay, or get paid for holidays - it doesn’t work like a normal employees holidays. This is quite a big disadvantage, especially when it comes to mat leave - where the other women in the country accrue holiday pay during mat leave, we don’t

You work 40 hours a week, with 20 days off. yes it’s hard work, and I didn’t find it left me with enough time to live my life. That’s why I left the ‘’8-6’ and became a teacher

So teaching pay - this is the naive bit - if a job advertised in teaching at 30k, that's the total right? It's not 30k then pro rata'd down for the actual term weeks? correct. I earn £27000 and that is what gets taxed and taken home. It’s about £22 an hour

However - I am just a teacher. If you take on head of year, or head of subject roles then you are paid hardly anything more (about 80p an hour more) and you can kiss goodbye to ‘teacher hours’!)

Why do they need an extra bank hol? bank hols are for everyone, regardless of how many hours or what wages people earn. We didn’t ask for a bank holiday, we don’t ‘need’ it - we are getting it given to us just like everyone else