Ukraine Invasion: Part 25

[MagicFox]

Hi all, another thread for supporting and sharing

This is a nice bit of news in all the gloom. Sweet little story about a dog Ukrainian forces rescued when it was left behind (hopefully the link works!)

Russian dog learns Ukrainian

Thanks for the information about the British fighters.

I am not at all sure what was agreed to end the steelworks resistance. Statements seen to be contradictory.

My guess is that the marines and others might be part of a prisoner exchange at some point. Members of the Azov unit? No. Capturing them is a coup for the Russians, who will make the most of those who have fallen into their hands alive.

Surely the issue with mis-treating prisoners is that it encourages your opposition to fight until the end, whereas I can imagine Ukraine running propaganda on the Russian army explaining they will be well looked after, fed, treated for wounds which might persuade those already abandoned by their leaders to give up.

I know they won't repatriate while the war is on going but surely the Geneva convention still applies to POW's as to their treatment.

>Surely the issue with mis-treating prisoners is that it encourages your opposition to fight until the end…

Azov didn’t fight to the end. That’s partly the problem as now, as far as the Russians are concerned, they’ve got their Nazis.

I don’t have prisoner mistreatment on my mind, though of course it might occur, just the likelihood of who might and might not be exchanged as prisoners.

I need to finish some work. When I get the time I’ll post something brief about Azov but the TL/DR will probably be: dodgy origins, the time they let the side down, the time they heroically helped save a city, and the pity they were not disbanded/merged into other units years ago.

@Autumnwater · 17/05/2022 21:51
This is a nice bit of news in all the gloom. Sweet little story about a dog Ukrainian forces rescued when it was left behind (hopefully the link works!)

Russian dog learns Ukrainian
mobile.twitter.com/slavandic/status/1374767695762235396

That is a satisfying story Autumn. I’ve copied and pasted the words:

In Mykolayiv region #Russian occupiers were defeated in battle and left their Belgian Shepherd, Bucks.

*Dog, who had previously served in the Rosguard, learned the commands in #Ukrainian in less than a month and will soon start serving in 🇺🇦 National Guard.^

But it's not just Azov there, there are Marines, police, National guard. I know that their history has not been glorious to put it mildly but I understood that that changed when they became part of the Ukrainian military and subject to the rules governing the military.

MMBaranova · 17/05/2022 22:21

I need to finish some work. When I get the time I’ll post something brief about Azov but the TL/DR will probably be: dodgy origins, the time they let the side down, the time they heroically helped save a city, and the pity they were not disbanded/merged into other units years ago.

When you have time MMB, or someone else, please would you tell me what the
TL/DR is?

Also I thought they had been merged with the Ukraine militia. Had they not?

What do you mean by when they let the side down?

Russia is becoming potentially more and more isolated

The Kyiv Independent, [17/05/2022 23:36]
⚡️Russian media: Russia considering withdrawal from WHO, WTO.

Russia’s parliament will consider withdrawing from the World Health Organization, as well as World Trade Organization, Russian media outlet Kommersant reported on May 17, citing deputy speaker of Russia’s State Duma Pyotr Tolstoy.

Even if you consider that they are allies with China and India the WTO and WHO is soemthing that India at least values - not sure about China. If this isn't just more poisoned waffle, Russia is really messing itself up.

Conspiracy theorists have to me that the WHO is aligning itself to China and the way they dealt with Covid.
They've also said that a number of countries are planning to sign an agreement that in a health emergency WHO are in charge of how they deal with it.

I get the impression from them that the WHO is important to China.
I would also say don't be quick to scoff because whilst I disagree and find the facts disagree on the whole, when you dig down there is usually a fact underneath it all, it's just the interpretation that's bollocks.
I also haven't looked into this yet myself so can't vouch for it either way.

*Said

National Gene Bank of Plants of Ukraine destroyed by the Russian army 🧬🌱

It kept more than 160 thousand varieties of plant seeds, and hybrids of agricultural crops, including some of those that no longer exist in Europe, and in the entire world.
The invaders destroyed the National Gene Bank of Plants of Ukraine | odessa-journal.com t.co/w6PICvpekk

mobile.twitter.com/mfa_ukraine/status/1526512824687681536

I just saw a Russian official on the news calling for the Ukrainians from Azovstal to be punished for the crimes they ‘have committed and continue to commit’ against their soldiers. He said POWS had been returned to them with fingers missing and so on. Would this simply be made up?

@ScrollingLeaves TL/DR is too long/didn't read.

Arestovych update:

He refused to comment on Azovstal evacuation, saying the situation is very fragile. Something is still happening behind the scenes.

There is a plan on liberating Kherson which doesn't involve storming the city, no timescales given, but I didn't get an impression that it's imminent.

Russians are now switching to defensive and very actively digging themselves in. This will take a few weeks. Ukraine isn't going to switch to full offensive just yet, it's quite complicated process to make sure everything is set up for it, as they don't want "to dive in head first like Russians did" (I found that quite amusing).

Russians are generally spread out very thinly along their defensive lines. They are shooting in the North to try and distract/tie up UA forces there because even extra 100 men could be a tipping point for them in the East.

He also said something about RUS shooting at Israel plane (I'm assuming military), I'm not sure where, and Israel is really pissed off.

@OwlsDance · 17/05/2022 23:40
@ScrollingLeaves TL/DR is too long/didn't read.

What is TL/DR?

The Azov Issue

Back in 2012 I was doing some research on extreme right Russian individuals and groups. It came as no surprise that they sometimes featured in opposition to the Maydan protests in Ukraine in late 2013, and as the war in Luhansk and Donetsk developed in 2014 started to pop up in the ‘rebel’ ranks. There is no doubt that there were more participants on the Extreme Right – Fascist – Nazi spectrum on the Russian side than on the Ukrainian. However, successful finger pointing by the Russians and their friends across Europe and a greater willingness for the Ukrainian ones to bask in publicity meant that it was the Ukrainian and not the Russian ones who were in the spotlight. This was especially so with Azov.

Continuity. Are the current Azov fighters of 2022 the same as those of 2014? I’m not seeing that and in 2014 it was a small unit, then self designated as a regiment. The continuity that there is, is one of name, symbols, reputation and group memory. Azov is now a Battalion within the armed forces of Ukraine. Back in 2014 it was one of a number of units outside of the regular forces, including Dnipro-1, Donbas and Aidar [more on the last of those later] formed by oligarchs and/or political movements to help stem the initial advances of the ‘separatists’ (Russian proxies).

Foundation and symbols. The initial members of the Azov regiment were a mixed group of mostly extreme rightists, foreign fighters and football thugs. Some were declared neo-Nazis, most weren’t, but tolerated the former and as an outfit adopted the symbol of the Social-National Party (yes the name did place it in a certain political zone) which looks like an N with a vertical I bar through it. The Social-National Party itself rebranded as Svoboda and went for a less triggering three raised fingers of a fist yellow on blue flag. The N, if it is a letter, is actually the penultimate letter of President Zelenskyy’s name and is a sort of Y contributing to the iy sound. Nowadays Azov often rotates the symbol so that it is at a slant. They often add a black sun wheel symbol, which is also loved by some white nationalists around the world including some hardcore Russian extremists. The branding is clear and, to me, embarrassing.

Failure. In the fighting at and around Ilovaisk in August 2014 Azov were criticised for their unreliability and ineffectiveness. Their losses were high. These were desperate battles and it was thought by many that they paraded and talked the talk but didn’t walk the walk.

There is a plan on liberating Kherson which doesn't involve storming the city, no timescales given, but I didn't get an impression that it's imminent.

Russians are now switching to defensive and very actively digging themselves in. This will take a few weeks. Ukraine isn't going to switch to full offensive just yet, it's quite complicated process to make sure everything is set up for it, as they don't want "to dive in head first like Russians did" (I found that quite amusing).

Wondering how Ukraine would liberate an occupied city like Kherson where the Russian occupiers are dug in without storming it. If that is possible, then that would be great.

They could apply that formula to Donetsk, Luhansk, and Mariupol and, dare I say, Crimea. Not greedy at all.

Heroism. Azov was sent down to the area east of Mariupol where they had limited success in helping to hold the advance by the separatist forces towards the city in later August 2014. However, as the front got closer to the city they contributed to a successful defence and were noted for their bravery. Azov’s name was therefore associated with Mariupol, on the Sea of Azov, and its remaining in Ukrainian hands.

Integration. In late 2014 the volunteer regiments were integrated into the Ukrainian army. Azov seems to have been more autonomous than most and has retained its identity, reputation and symbology. Others like Aidar, accused of atrocities and criminal activity through 2014, were incorporated into a larger unit and more or less merged away. As a separate, identifiable unit, the now battalion designated Azov has been an easy target for Putin in his stated desire to de-nazify Ukraine. I have never been happy with some in Ukraine giving Azov a pass and effectively saying ‘yes, some are Nazis, but they are our Nazis’. It is a pity there was not the will to disband / integrate them away. Are the members of the battalion who have got on the Russian buses in Mariupol extreme right hard cases? I doubt that many are. Most are just patriots of some sort with maybe some foreign fighters. To Putin though, he’s got one of his sought after prizes. Alive.

No!

Oh no. If ever proof were needed that Putin is betraying everything that was ever good in Russia, this is it.

One of the amazing things that Russians did during WW2 was protect their national seed bank for future generations. During the Siege of Leningrad, scientists at the Vavilov Institute of Plant Industry starved to death next to stores of rice, peas, corn and wheat, which they protected with their lives.

SOVIET BOTANISTS STARVED, SAVING SEEDS FOR FUTURE
www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1992/05/12/soviet-botanists-starved-saving-seeds-for-future/10840121-9058-4c1f-ae7a-22ac16a6f4de/

That vile little loser is shitting all over the legacy of such heroic men and women. As well of course as damaging the world's future biodiversity and food security.

Thank you, MMBaranova, your posts are so informative.

@MMBaranova
Thank you very much for that history of the Azov battalion.

In this invasion it seems really that they are just brave fighters with their personal beliefs, whatever they are, not relevant as such.

I wonder if they agreed to leave so as to give other non Azov fighters among them a chance? They must have suspected all along that they might as well die there at the steel plant as at the hands of the Russians.

MMBaranova, thank you for the history and background to Azov. It looks like who and what they stand for has been distorted over the years and the horribly twisted by Putin.

Those brave soldiers. They are not guilty of the trumped up war crimes they have been charged with but they will not be allowed to prove their innocence.

I am not fully understanding things. Why it is so important for Putin to capture them alive?

@MMBaranova thankyou very much for such a comprehensive overview. I had been wondering why there was so much (negative) noise around Azov when they were fighting so heroically. This had helped me understand so much better.

Can I ask, do you know if there was there a significant divide in Mariupol itself between pro Russia and pro Ukraine citizens?

I'm seeing lots of debate about this issue, it's interesting. I think I agree with L Freedman that we wait until we get there but perhaps it is an discussion that needs to happen.

"If Russia's offensive totally collapsed and Kyiv said "and now, onto Crimea!", what would we say?"

twitter.com/brunotertrais/status/1526634292813627392?s=21&t=C1bTOqHQzW11jM_Y9NRhYg