Ukraine Invasion: Part 24

[MagicFox]

Welcome one and all and thanks again to everyone contributing

putin did it first. For over 20 years.

I had the feeling they weren't facing the really hard between-a-rock-and-a-hard-place moments. But in the last war they faced a lot of calumny and they still stuck to their principles at considerable personal cost. I respect that, even if 1) in the wrong circumstances they face being exterminated and thus end of their beliefs and 2) I don't think their solution is right when you're facing young children being killed, or old people.

Trouble is, they could only do that because other people fought on their behalf.

If they hadn't, then what would have happened?

It wasn't just them facing extermination by choice. There were others facing just pure extermination.

That paradox is never resolved or answered.

As I say. Its ultimately a luxury belief system.

Checking in as I learn a lot from these threads.

@RedToothBrush 05/05/2022 22:33
It is interesting your aunt and uncle are Quakers and you have experience of their tendency to be naive

I knew a Quaker once whose brother was killed in WW11 working as an ambulance driver. I never knew exactly what she thought about others actually fighting in that war . Though she once said, “So much was lost in the war”, I suspect she thought we had to fight. Her husband had had an important role, though not a fighting one. They were admirable people.

Quakers do seem to have been efficient and pragmatic on some issues such as how to treat people who work for you. Opposing slavery. No doubt many things behind the scenes, such as helping refugees and Jews in WW11.

I just read this though which is more relevant to here.
Their belief in non-violence would also become a political problem for Quakers. Throughout the eighteenth century, colonists fought different battles against the French, Indian enemies, and finally the British. Many colonists felt that Friends benefited from the sacrifices made by other colonists and yet refused to participate in the financial or human cost of warfare. As a result of their pacifist beliefs,
www.ncpedia.org/anchor/quakers

@ScrollingLeaves

l j s b e a r I could not post using your name in the usual format as I got a message saying that username does not exist.

bloody Mumsnet. I promise you I do exist!

@RedToothBrush · 05/05/2022 22:20

very interesting. Supporting the view that Russia will not risk too many armed Russians, there is quite a lot of information about the unwillingly-drafted and terribly poorly armed Eastern Ukrainians who are being pushed with great reluctance into battle. I've also seen Canadian VOlunteer and others with rumours (and that's all they are) that cities surrounding Ukraine such as Belgorod are starting to get drafts, but no general announcement of it. Clearly looking for manpower, but without the official annoucement - and they will be untrained and unwilling.

Galeev's thread on Lukaschenko was also very interesting and events seem to actually support his hypothesis.

I'm not sure about Putin not being crazy. Crazy like a fox yes; but he's had no one at his own level who will tell him he's wrong for a long time now. He's a cracked soul, something is wrong; and I think he's fallen into the ancient trap of Hubris.

But he's still clever as hell and not one to push into a corner.

⚡️Jill Biden to spend Mother’s Day with Ukrainian refugees in Slovakia.

U.S. First Lady Jill Biden will depart on the evening of May 5 for a four-day visit to Romania and Slovakia, which will include Mother’s Day activities with Ukrainian refugees in Kosice, Slovakia.

Wow! The Biden's are really doing this! Ukraine will change the world for the better I think. Maybe this time it really be "never again"

I'm feeling more positive again.

And more!

NEW: Japan announces asset freezes on 140+ Russians, an export ban of advanced Japanese technology, and additional asset freezes on Russian banks.

"The Russian side caused this situation. Russia is entirely responsible," said Prime Minister Kishida.

Pmk. Thanks for the new thread.

That's strong wording.

I get the sense that even relatively neutral (and even allied) countries are now getting fed up with Putin's ego war and the impact on the global economy.

Oh absoluetely, I think they have a lot to say on a lot of subjects.

But war is the most extreme of all things, and whilst you can do an important role which isn't on the front line as part of war, you still need people to defend you and others who can't defend themselves.

My Aunt and Uncle, often by deliberate choice, have lived a very sheltered life. My cousins have a very strange and distorted view of the world as a result. Its wholesome and in many respects disconnected to the stresses of many of the things we have in our modern lives. I am a similar age to my cousins, and I was always very acutely aware of how hard they found it to relate to anyone of a similar age who wasn't part of their immediate community. I, on the other hand, had cultural and social reference points that I could/can share with most people of a certain age.

Is it better?

I don't know.

I think in many ways I view them as having almost 'opted out' of many things, including seeing the imperfections of the world. I think there is value in seeing this and understanding that not everyone has the luxury of being able to make the choices they have, because they are just trying to survive. Few actively choose to fight for their country, purely for patrotism - more often its because its a way to escape a life where there are few opportunities and options available to them.

I think I have always found it some what separatist and a rejection of the world in a sort of almost aloof way. Not intentionally so, but thats what it becomes in practice.

I think its a noble set of values but I also think it misses the really crucial key questions too. I guess we all have our own blind spots though.

Ijsbear, you're a capital 'i' aren't you not a lower case 'l' (for Lima) that's probably why you weren't recognised.
(Just to show I may not post much but I follow every word and I'm grateful for the knowledge on display!)

Rumours on twitter that Ukraine has hit the Russian Frigate Admiral Makarov.

And on that note... Sleep.

Link to Twitter OSINT:

They say it's not confirmed.

twitter.com/sentdefender/status/1522349841807986688?s=21&t=nNGb6VjfKPtOnwUMaqRrWw

Yeah that's right :) ijsbeer is the dutch word for polar bear. 'Ijs' pronounced 'ice'. Adopted it, slightly adapted for English, as its the name of my winter swimming club :-) we usually go to the local swimming lake 2 - 4 times a week. It's hard getting in the water but has a lot of physical benefits. There were over 100 of us on new years day!

Re: Quakers

Its the same for Jehovah’s Witnesses. During the Holocaust they refused to take up arms and were also treated like Jews, taken to concentration camps and killed.

The JW’s in Ukraine are also neutral and won’t take up arms, some have died in Ukraine.

Whatever you think of them, they also have faced death due to their beliefs and remain steadfast in the face of it.

Good thread by academic Mark Kuldkepp counteracting realist arguments about Russia and Ukraine and calmly estimating position of Russia, Ukraine and the West: twitter.com/kuldkeppmart/status/1522271404829425664?s=21&t=Xv92QIV56fBUCrI0xi9RMw

Thoughts, everyone, on this thread that details how Russian media is now reporting that US intel is responsible for the sinking of the Moskva? These feels...significant? twitter.com/olganyc1211/status/1522421702529060866?s=21&t=Xv92QIV56fBUCrI0xi9RMw

I was brought up Quaker for a while and have always retained a residual respect for Quakers and their beliefs and gone back to meetings from time to time.
I don’t think I have ever felt less like doing that than I do now.

pmk

Guardian reporting in the past few minutes that, according to the Mariupol local authority, the next phase of evacuation from the Steel plant is underway.

Not sure how they're going to backtrack from their supposed 'fire on board' statement? I do feel that it's easier and lighter on their ego to claim America had something to do with it rather than Ukraine maybe. I'm not sure.

They don’t need to backtrack, they just do the usual Russian thing of completely ignoring what they said before. Contradictions are absolutely fine within that way of operating.

And yes exactly, it’s easier for their ego to say it was America but also gives them an excuse to escalate. Which comes back to the point that it is absolutely pointless for us to try to avoid provoking Putin and giving him an excuse to escalate because if he wants to he will just make something up.