Ukraine Invasion: Part 23

[MagicFox]

Welcome all, thanks for the company

Yes this is really significant. Belarus’ leadership is often considered as an extension of the Kremlin!

I was reading earlier, can’t remember now where, about China’s relative silence recently in terms of support. It was basically saying China will never publicly side with the West so we need to basically read into what’s not there too.

We B be n

Don't know what happened there

I’ve been Sat trying to work out if it’s some sort of code 😂

Very telling from Lukanhesko. When the tide is turning....

Must share this

twitter.com/lattuadalela/status/1522197796211863555?s=21&t=O2Ch0nA0H5tsbqjdjTnKjQ

It's the Mr Bean reply btw

Lula is talking a load of appeasing crap

The US and EU could have avoided the invasion by stating that Ukraine would not join Nato, he said.
@Putin shouldn’t have invaded Ukraine. But it’s not just Putin who is guilty. The US and the EU are also guilty,” Lula said

That's classic apologist crap for an abuser: "It's their fault he hit them"

Why the fuck should Ukraine not be able to join NATO if it wanted to? It's a sovereign country.

It's interesting that Brazil shares with Russia the dubious accolade that 0.001% own more than the bottom 80% (along with Chile and South Africa) Is that a coincidence?

Illia Ponomarenko AT IAPomomarenko
Ukraine’s military launch counter-offensive operations near Kharkiv and Izium

|❗️Ukraine has launched a counteroffensive in the Kharkiv and Izium directions - General Staff of the Armed Forces of Ukraine.

Also, and this matters:

President Volodymyr Zelensky and German President Frank-Walter Steinmeier held talks on Thursday. According to Die Welt, during the conversation the presidents settled the misunderstandings that existed between them .

-

Steinmeier paid tribute to Zelensky and assured him of the support of the Ukrainian people in the war against the Russian aggressor. In response, Zelensky "cordially" invited the Federal President of Germany and Chancellor Olaf Scholz to Kyiv

There hasn't been a lack of talking. It's just that Putin long ago reached the part of the Dictator's Script where talking is flimflam to amuse the enemy while he gets on with whatever the fuck he wants to do @PerkingFaintly has just summed this up and everyone who suggests "let's talk" should read this!

I'm not sure I agree about NATO going in. I simply don't know. I hope that the Ukrainians can push back the Russians to their own borders on their own, though god help them.

Tiddy, a link from that thread - is that confirmed true? Becuase if so - my goodness!

Even before the United States entered World War II in December 1941, America sent arms and equipment to the Soviet Union to help it defeat the Nazi invasion. Totaling $11.3 billion, or $180 billion in today’s currency, the Lend-Lease Act of the United States supplied needed goods to the Soviet Union from 1941 to 1945 in support of what Stalin described to Roosevelt as the “enormous and difficult fight against the common enemy — bloodthirsty Hitlerism.”

400,000 jeeps & trucks

14,000 airplanes

8,000 tractors

13,000 tanks

1.5 million blankets

15 million pairs of army boots

107,000 tons of cotton

2.7 million tons of petrol products

4.5 million tons of food

BBC

International donors have pledged $6.5bn to support Ukraine during a conference in the Polish capital Warsaw.

"Today has shown that our support for Ukraine continues and that here there is no selfishness among us," Polish prime minister Mateusz Morawiecki said during his concluding remarks.

The money was pledged by countries around the world as well as businesses and banks.

Morawiecki said Ukraine needs 12,000 tonnes of humanitarian aid daily, but currently the international effort is providing just 3,000 tonnes, while international aid agencies estimate about 40% of Ukraine’s population is in need of humanitarian aid.

Addressing the conference via video link, Ukrainian president Volodymyr Zelensky highlighted three elements of support:

Financial resources to support Ukrainian citizens’ humanitarian needs while the war continues
The preparation of a large-scale reconstruction plan that would be akin to the Marshall Plan after WW2
Immediate EU candidacy status for Ukraine
Ukraine has received over $12bn in weapons and financial aid since the start of Russia's invasion on 24 February, Ukraine's Prime Minister Denys Shmyhal said at the conference.

That's really good news. Been wondering about the reconstruction and funding it. The damage done is so immense :( Kharkiv's tram system has been destroyed by carefully aimed missiles at the substations and depot

Russian TV is governed by the political agenda. This is chilling. A whole country officially putting out encouragement of concentration camps and sterilization.

surely some Russians must be watching this and thinking .... but that's exactly what the Nazis did? and ... what is our country coming to?

twitter.com/Gerashchenko_en/status/1521802979619311618

Very wise post @strawberriesarenot.

I think it's interesting the number of people who condemn, and seem frightened of, Patrushev for being "the hawk's hawk" and what he might do if he succeeds, or temporarily stands in for, Putin, yet in the same breath assert that they are proud to be hawkish themselves because the West are "the good guys" and, therefore, calling for more war and destruction is in fact morally superior to those resistant to the idea.

Hawkishness is what got us here in the first place, there's a real cognitive dissonance around that among those who declare themselves to be so. If Putin and his ilk weren't hawkish they wouldn't have invaded. You can't declare it as a matter of pride and superiority over others with one breath and decry the actions of those who are hawkish with the other. The West is only morally superior if you live in the West and have a Western mindset - and we've also done some pretty hard to stomach things in the not so distant past.

Before anyone jumps on me - I'm not saying that what is happening isn't reprehensible, but do I think "blah blah, we've got big bombs too, let's send our brave men and women off to fight, we'd beat Putin in hours" is realistic and I don't think more war is ever the way to solve the problem of war. I also reject the idea that that makes me a coward - "courageous" words about a willingness to die for this cause from those sitting safely behind a computer screen are just that, simply words.

Disclaimer - I firmly believe that the Russian Govt and spokespeople are cunts BUT I’ve seen lots of commentators (Western and otherwise) suggesting that this clip is a short exert of a longer one and actually he was taking about what the West will do to Russians. I think it’s more about riling up the Russian public.

Thing is Toastfiend talk of NATO on the ground is for defensive purposes in an land that's been invaded. Not one single person is suggesting going into Russia itself. So it does mean a moral superiority.

Agreed that the US and UK were morally reprehensible in the 2nd Iraq war and Afghan war though

I'm afraid that whike I respect a pacifist point of view my own is that sometimes you have to defend your own, and the defenseless. If you have the power to help someone who is the victim of theft, cruelty, rape, destruction and murder and don't, you are to some degree complicit.

@Igotjelly oh thanks, I hadn't seen the commentators putting it in context.

That rather puts a very different spin on it ... which has some implications of its own.

I think that's easy to say when "doing something" still doesn't involve you. When "doing something" doesn't involve waving your loved ones off. When "doing something" still means you can sit safely at home whilst enjoying the feeling of moral superiority (unless of course they do decide to nuke us all!)

Maybe we ought to send extinction rebellion and Co to Moscow.
They could admonish Putin on the damage they've done to the environment, perhaps sit in front of tanks to get them to stop.

That'll show him.

Guess it’s an example of propaganda works both ways.

This! This was the point I was trying to make earlier on in the thread.

Referring to @toastfiend's latest post. Not quite sure what happened to my quotation mark!

Pretty much where I am.

In my heart I'm a pacifist. In reality I recognise that being a pacifist is the ultimate privileged point of view, where you do not have an understanding that not every wants peace. You don't understand that peace, is only there because behind the scenes someone has been protecting you from those who would wish you harm.

I think my view on nukes is simply, we keep doing what we are doing. If Putin is minded to drop a bomb, he will regardless of our actions. If he's not minded to, he won't regardless of our actions.

No one is 'making' him, and I find the idea that someone else makes Putin make a decision to drop a bomb, laughable.

I'd wave my sons off yes. It's dismissive (and inaccurate) to assume that people don't rise to the challenge when something affects them.

Frankly when the shit really hits the fan in your life, sometimes you have to decide what you will stand for and what you will die for. Have you met people who will do anything to save their lives? They are truly frightening. My life > everyone else's is not somewhere I want to go, and after that it's a matter of where and which lines you wish to draw. I know some of mine (though when you are directly faced with violent death it tends to concentrate the mind wonderfully, but also you can react in ways you didn't expect unless you have gone through a lot of training).

I also think that the moral aspect is only part of the equation. The other parts are 1) will involvement achieve anything and 2) can we get involved? do we have the ability to?

All three are equal parts of the tripod when it comes to making the decision to get involved or not.

Putin reportedly told Israeli PM that his country will provide safe passage from the steel plant for civilians and fighters. For some reason I just don’t believe him…

Thank you for expressing where I stand so perfectly, RedToothBrush.

As a teenager I was in CND and believed in unilateral disarmament. Now I am very glad we have nukes too. I also know more about abusers now than I did then.