Page 38 | Ukraine Invasion: Part 23

MagicFox · 2022-04-28T16:24:34+00:00

Welcome all, thanks for the company

Alexandra2001 · 05/05/2022 11:03

His actions are to corrupt, bully, assassinate, invade and bomb

Agree but he was doing that as we took his money, did his bidding over the EU and cozied up to him and his regime... this should never be forgotten.

It's why i can never side with Bojo, as far as i am concerned he and his party have Ukrainian blood on their hands over their Russian contacts and by being Putins useful idiot on Brexit.

Of course countries did similar but i am not a French/German etc citizen & few countries allowed Russia so much influence.

Iwasfeelingepic · 05/05/2022 11:07

TiddyTidTwo · 05/05/2022 00:41

Ok I'm hawkish on these threads and I'm sure most know this by now. My grandad was a Japanese pow. The effect of that optimised my father and in turn me. So I have a very rigid though process and belief. My father and me both served in the British army too.

I try to be sedate but from pretty much the beginning I couldn't understand why we let history repeat itself.

Then there was bucha. That was it for me, I was done. I cannot understand why anyone would excuse that with "but nukes though" and believe those threats could mean we'd stand back so he could, AND HAS, carried on. In fact he's got worse and is taking the piss out of all of us.

But still, we carry on trying to appease but be strong. He knows it hence why he keeps threatening

Am I scared? No. Not in the slightest. I'd rather die than live in a world where killing children, raping them and their mothers, tying peoples hands behind their backs, shooting them then kicking them into a mass grave but as long as it isn't us?

NO THANKS

It'll be us next

Agree with everything you said.x

jgw1 · 05/05/2022 11:08

Alexandra2001 · 05/05/2022 11:03

His actions are to corrupt, bully, assassinate, invade and bomb

Agree but he was doing that as we took his money, did his bidding over the EU and cozied up to him and his regime... this should never be forgotten.

It's why i can never side with Bojo, as far as i am concerned he and his party have Ukrainian blood on their hands over their Russian contacts and by being Putins useful idiot on Brexit.

Of course countries did similar but i am not a French/German etc citizen & few countries allowed Russia so much influence.

But Jeremy Corbyn.

PerkingFaintly · 05/05/2022 11:25

You see, this crap is why I'm glad Macron has been on the phone an hour a day talking to Putin.

I don't believe for a moment that it makes any difference to Putin's actions, but it blows out of the water the claim that "this could all have been avoided if only someone had talked to Putin." The person embodying the Presidency of the EU has been talking to him. And come to that, President Biden did spend significant time talking to Putin before the invasion.

Similarly, although I'd rather Russia weren't benefitting from gas and oil income from Germany right now, the fact that for years Germany has worked hard to build good practical and economic relationships with Russia blows out of the water attempts to claim that poor lil' Putin only did this because Russia had been isolated and pushed into a corner, wah wah Versailles wah wah.

Like any abuser, Putin does exactly as he likes, then trots out the line, "I wouldn't done it if only you'd done X."

Like any abuser, it's never true.

We don't even have to torment ourselves wondering if there might be some tiny germ of truth because, we did do the things he and his apologists said we should have done.

It's actually one of the great strengths of a broad alliance. There's space for good cop bad cop. We need both.

PerkingFaintly · 05/05/2022 11:27

Sorry, "this crap" was referring to the Lula claims, not to posters here!

PippinStar · 05/05/2022 11:38

TiddyTidTwo · 05/05/2022 00:41

Ok I'm hawkish on these threads and I'm sure most know this by now. My grandad was a Japanese pow. The effect of that optimised my father and in turn me. So I have a very rigid though process and belief. My father and me both served in the British army too.

I try to be sedate but from pretty much the beginning I couldn't understand why we let history repeat itself.

Then there was bucha. That was it for me, I was done. I cannot understand why anyone would excuse that with "but nukes though" and believe those threats could mean we'd stand back so he could, AND HAS, carried on. In fact he's got worse and is taking the piss out of all of us.

But still, we carry on trying to appease but be strong. He knows it hence why he keeps threatening

Am I scared? No. Not in the slightest. I'd rather die than live in a world where killing children, raping them and their mothers, tying peoples hands behind their backs, shooting them then kicking them into a mass grave but as long as it isn't us?

NO THANKS

It'll be us next

I agree with you too Tiddy, I’ve wanted NATO to go in from the beginning of this invasion because I’ve studied the psychology of abusers and malignant narcissists enough to know how appeasement would go, both for the people of Ukraine and the wider world.

I have two toddlers, and I just don’t know how I will be able to explain to them in years to come how the world looked on at what’s happening and didn’t do all they could.

I also have never been afraid of the “but …nukes” argument because I’d rather we all stood together and died for a reason, then live on in a world where we don’t stand for a whole lot. I mean, if the nukes don’t get us, global warming probably will!

strawberriesarenot · 05/05/2022 11:51

*But still, we carry on trying to appease but be strong. He knows it hence why he keeps threatening

Am I scared? No. Not in the slightest. I'd rather die than live in a world where killing children, raping them and their mothers, tying peoples hands behind their backs, shooting them then kicking them into a mass grave but as long as it isn't us?

NO THANKS*

I think part of the reason that we are allowing Ukraine to fight alone (I know they would have gone under long ago without Western weapons) is that in the past, in less economically significant countries we have stood back while atrocities happened. And also, I am ashamed to say, not too many years ago we invaded Iraq. It seems we choose when to be the good guys. Here in the west we can explain this to ourselves, saying, 'can't be world police' or 'blanket bombing of Iraq was nothing like as atrocious as the scenes Tiddy just described' etc. But to the wider world, it's not so easily explained away.
It's moral munitions for some countries to remember these things about us.

Also many of us might prefer to be nuked as a good guy, but I suggested many more would not. It's not like the human population is destroyed and the birds carry on singing. It's devastation to whole ecosystems, and at a time when many people think is critical to the survival of the planet. This small, contained, hideous war is already causing vast amounts of destruction and pollution. We can't risk any spread that can possibly be contained. This planet is not ours to gamble with. It belongs more to future generations than it does to us. And I think it belongs to all living things, not just Homo not-so-bloody-sapiens.

Putin probably won't use nukes. I personally would bet on him not doing. But while I would bet my own safety on him not doing, I wouldn't bet my kids, or their kids, or the birds that will rain out of the sky, or the burning forests and fields. None of those things are mine to bet, anymore than they are Putin's.
The monster. May he rot.

Original poster

MagicFox · 05/05/2022 11:55

That's well said @strawberriesarenot

OP posts:

PippinStar · 05/05/2022 12:07

strawberriesarenot · 05/05/2022 11:51

*But still, we carry on trying to appease but be strong. He knows it hence why he keeps threatening

Am I scared? No. Not in the slightest. I'd rather die than live in a world where killing children, raping them and their mothers, tying peoples hands behind their backs, shooting them then kicking them into a mass grave but as long as it isn't us?

NO THANKS*

I think part of the reason that we are allowing Ukraine to fight alone (I know they would have gone under long ago without Western weapons) is that in the past, in less economically significant countries we have stood back while atrocities happened. And also, I am ashamed to say, not too many years ago we invaded Iraq. It seems we choose when to be the good guys. Here in the west we can explain this to ourselves, saying, 'can't be world police' or 'blanket bombing of Iraq was nothing like as atrocious as the scenes Tiddy just described' etc. But to the wider world, it's not so easily explained away.
It's moral munitions for some countries to remember these things about us.

Also many of us might prefer to be nuked as a good guy, but I suggested many more would not. It's not like the human population is destroyed and the birds carry on singing. It's devastation to whole ecosystems, and at a time when many people think is critical to the survival of the planet. This small, contained, hideous war is already causing vast amounts of destruction and pollution. We can't risk any spread that can possibly be contained. This planet is not ours to gamble with. It belongs more to future generations than it does to us. And I think it belongs to all living things, not just Homo not-so-bloody-sapiens.

Putin probably won't use nukes. I personally would bet on him not doing. But while I would bet my own safety on him not doing, I wouldn't bet my kids, or their kids, or the birds that will rain out of the sky, or the burning forests and fields. None of those things are mine to bet, anymore than they are Putin's.
The monster. May he rot.

I agree to an extent. But then I also see that humans destroy the planet and animals and risk future generations for reasons far more meaningless than preventing genocide and keeping our humanity.

Igotjelly · 05/05/2022 12:07

strawberriesarenot · 05/05/2022 11:51

*But still, we carry on trying to appease but be strong. He knows it hence why he keeps threatening

Am I scared? No. Not in the slightest. I'd rather die than live in a world where killing children, raping them and their mothers, tying peoples hands behind their backs, shooting them then kicking them into a mass grave but as long as it isn't us?

NO THANKS*

I think part of the reason that we are allowing Ukraine to fight alone (I know they would have gone under long ago without Western weapons) is that in the past, in less economically significant countries we have stood back while atrocities happened. And also, I am ashamed to say, not too many years ago we invaded Iraq. It seems we choose when to be the good guys. Here in the west we can explain this to ourselves, saying, 'can't be world police' or 'blanket bombing of Iraq was nothing like as atrocious as the scenes Tiddy just described' etc. But to the wider world, it's not so easily explained away.
It's moral munitions for some countries to remember these things about us.

Also many of us might prefer to be nuked as a good guy, but I suggested many more would not. It's not like the human population is destroyed and the birds carry on singing. It's devastation to whole ecosystems, and at a time when many people think is critical to the survival of the planet. This small, contained, hideous war is already causing vast amounts of destruction and pollution. We can't risk any spread that can possibly be contained. This planet is not ours to gamble with. It belongs more to future generations than it does to us. And I think it belongs to all living things, not just Homo not-so-bloody-sapiens.

Putin probably won't use nukes. I personally would bet on him not doing. But while I would bet my own safety on him not doing, I wouldn't bet my kids, or their kids, or the birds that will rain out of the sky, or the burning forests and fields. None of those things are mine to bet, anymore than they are Putin's.
The monster. May he rot.

Excellent post @strawberriesarenot

blueshoes · 05/05/2022 12:43

strawberriesarenot: Putin probably won't use nukes. I personally would bet on him not doing. But while I would bet my own safety on him not doing, I wouldn't bet my kids, or their kids, or the birds that will rain out of the sky, or the burning forests and fields. None of those things are mine to bet, anymore than they are Putin's. The monster. May he rot.

Who can disagree with this. But what do you suggest we should do with the monster that is Putin then? He is not going away.

katem98 · 05/05/2022 12:44

@strawberriesarenot What a brilliant post.

strawberriesarenot · 05/05/2022 13:00

blueshoes · 05/05/2022 12:43

strawberriesarenot: Putin probably won't use nukes. I personally would bet on him not doing. But while I would bet my own safety on him not doing, I wouldn't bet my kids, or their kids, or the birds that will rain out of the sky, or the burning forests and fields. None of those things are mine to bet, anymore than they are Putin's. The monster. May he rot.

Who can disagree with this. But what do you suggest we should do with the monster that is Putin then? He is not going away.

Hindsight is 20:20 I know, but we should have been negotiating long before this year, while Putin had some sort of sanity left to him.

Short term and it's no solution, I'd stop gas imports immediately, and financially support countries like Germany, Italy etc. that would be the worst affected. Now's the time, not Autumn. Too late then.
It would be expensive, but I think no more expensive than war. Gas will be more hassle to Russia than oil. Much harder to store and transport and sell to alternative markets.
I don't know. None of us do. I'm glad the decisions are not mine to make.I'm aware that Putin isn't the only monster in the Kremlin, too.

strawberriesarenot · 05/05/2022 13:02

I didn't write those last 2 paragraphs of knitting pattern or whatever it is.

Igotjelly · 05/05/2022 13:03

strawberriesarenot · 05/05/2022 13:00

Hindsight is 20:20 I know, but we should have been negotiating long before this year, while Putin had some sort of sanity left to him.

Short term and it's no solution, I'd stop gas imports immediately, and financially support countries like Germany, Italy etc. that would be the worst affected. Now's the time, not Autumn. Too late then.
It would be expensive, but I think no more expensive than war. Gas will be more hassle to Russia than oil. Much harder to store and transport and sell to alternative markets.
I don't know. None of us do. I'm glad the decisions are not mine to make.I'm aware that Putin isn't the only monster in the Kremlin, too.

Show quote history

I have no doubt your link would have been a good one by my goodness Mumsnet is shit these days!

PerkingFaintly · 05/05/2022 13:12

But we have been negotiating long before this year.

That series about Putin and the West is fascinating. I don't think there's ever been a time when the US wasn't talking to Putin and sometimes even finding things to co-operate on.

The G7 and EU countries (including the UK) were also talking to Putin.

There hasn't been a lack of talking. It's just that Putin long ago reached the part of the Dictator's Script where talking is flimflam to amuse the enemy while he gets on with whatever the fuck he wants to do.

Original poster

MagicFox · 05/05/2022 13:20

Putin has lived a good, rich life and benefited from all those who sacrificed themselves for freedom in two world wars. And now he spits on that memory and pulls the world back into that darkness. His comfort, decadence and cruelly-won privilege (despite his accusations about decadence in the west) are written all over this.

OP posts:

ShinyHat22 · 05/05/2022 13:20

Thank you @strawberriesarenot. I am sick of this argument that there is a nuclear inevitability to this, and you are are somehow a coward if you don’t want to die “as a good guy”. I don’t want to die in a nuclear holocaust, nor do I want this for the millions of other people who would be terribly affected. This needs to be contained and people need to think beyond what they personally are OK with.

SerendipityJane · 05/05/2022 13:30

ShinyHat22 · 05/05/2022 13:20

Thank you @strawberriesarenot. I am sick of this argument that there is a nuclear inevitability to this, and you are are somehow a coward if you don’t want to die “as a good guy”. I don’t want to die in a nuclear holocaust, nor do I want this for the millions of other people who would be terribly affected. This needs to be contained and people need to think beyond what they personally are OK with.

What you want doesn't come into it. Surely we've all learned that now ?

ShinyHat22 · 05/05/2022 13:34

Well not entirely, as people are quite clear in discussing what they want to happen on this thread.

SerendipityJane · 05/05/2022 13:38

ShinyHat22 · 05/05/2022 13:34

Well not entirely, as people are quite clear in discussing what they want to happen on this thread.

Which may as well be a Christmas wish list. Lots of things I and millions of others want that ain't gonna happen too.

ShinyHat22 · 05/05/2022 13:42

Again, I get that . Doesn’t stop the dialogue though.

blueshoes · 05/05/2022 13:45

Yeah, I want to hide under my duvet and hope when I wake up in the morning everything has gone away. At least me and my family are safe from nukes. Madmen, someone else's problem.

ShinyHat22 · 05/05/2022 13:57

Not at all, it’s very evidently everyone’s problem.

RedToothBrush · 05/05/2022 14:19

Lukashenko (Belarusian president) has done an interview with AP.

Its been pointed out that rather than the 'we' that he was doing when he did a presser with Putin, he refers to 'them', expresses doubts that the operation is going well and makes a point of saying he doesn't know the details.

Thats a significant shift in rhetoric.